Anna Botting
Chris Langham thank you very much indeed for talking to us on Sky news. You're
obviously out of jail now, how relieved are you to be out of jail?
Chris Langham
It's wonderful, its absolutely wonderful. I, I, I've suddenly appreciate
everything because you're so deprived in there of just ... I couldn't sleep
the first night I was home because the bedroom door was open and I just
walked round the house and touching things and it was just fantastic.
AB
What was it like for you in there?
CL
Erm ... it was alright I mean it is vile, it is absolutely horrible [laughs]
being in prison and I know that I've always kind of carried around the idea
that well nowadays its all very cushy and they just play table tennis all
day, but it really is vile. It's, it's a horrible place to be and I, you
know, I hope I never, never go back. Erm, it's not just the regime which is
strict, although it's kind of humane in a slightly industrial way, but the
overcrowding is terrible and, and a lot of the people in jail are you know
people [laughs] that should be in jail and, and so there's a tremendous sort
of atmosphere of violence and rage and er ... but some of the older
prisoners were, were nice and I was able to have intelligent conversations
occasionally with them and get away for a few minutes from the sort of
profanity and racism and homophobia and just this repressed feeling of
vicious energy that pervades the place.
AB
It's known isn't it that anybody who's convicted of anything to do with
children gets a particularly rough ride. Did you have any incidents that you
remember?
CL
Yeah, because, you know, prisoners are completely disenfranchised people so if
they can identify a member of their own community as being on a slightly
lower rung of the ladder than they perceive they are, then obviously they
take advantage of that so there's a lot of abuse.
AB
And your cell was flooded, is that right? You were taunted, you had missiles
thrown at you?
CL
Yeah, that was early on and then things quietened down after a while and then
I think the novelty of me wore off after a bit.
AB
Yeah. Now I think you were in solitary confinement to start with. What's that
like?
CL
Yes they do that, its partly to do with the overcrowding. They put [you] in
what's called seg – the segregation unit which is the punishment block and
then, you know, because my face is known, the people on cells either side of
me knew who I was and what I was in for and so there was a lot of banging on
the walls and shouting you know ... abuse and threats and things but then,
as I said, once I'd moved into ... the house block that I spent the, the
balance of my time, things calmed down.
AB
So there was a cell of, of three of you in there and, and they were sex
offenders were they?
CL
It varies, the vulnerable prisoners wing, which is what it's called, contains
some sex-offenders and also some people who, I mean its quite odd, some
people who have been bullies on the main, in the main part of the prison get
taken to the vulnerable prisoners wing because of retaliation because
they've been bullies. But they're bullies [laughs] so its, you know ...
they're not the kindest people to be around.
AB
And what's it like living in a, in a cell, a small cell with, with, with so
many of you in there?
CL
Well they were designed for two people and there are three people living there
and it's tight for space - its tough for space yeah.
AB
How have the last two years been for you?
CL
They've been very difficult, really, really stressful and, you know, I've
often seen pictures of people walking in and out of court and thought, well,
I mean he's obviously guilty as sin because look at how ashamed he looks and
I never really appreciated that a lot of shame comes from the allegations
that are being made. And ... you know, I, I felt very hunted while I was,
you know, waiting to go on trial and it was a very long wait because ...
while I was waiting to go on trial for these images, after the publicity
that that generated, someone came out of the woodwork and made some
allegations against me which really complicated it and made the whole thing
much more time consuming and, you know, made them wait much longer and the
wait much more painful as well.
AB
Are you a paedophile?
CL
No I'm not.
AB
So why did you do it?
CL
Erm, I have no right to have done it, it was completely wrong that I did it,
there are no excuses for it. I think one of the difficulties that I have
found going through this is that there's an assumption made that if you
looked at images like this, that therefore you must have looked at them
because you have a sexual interest in children.
And it's, its an odd logic because one of the reasons I wanted to write about
it, and as a writer I am my best resource if I want to write about somebody
who's angry or lonely or in love. I've been angry, I've been lonely, I've
been in love, I can usually look into myself and find the material that I
need and as it happens I am the victim of sexual abuse when I was a child
but I find it very hard to access that stuff, I've struggled it with all my
life.
I have snap shots of what happened, I can't really string it together and I
find it very disturbing whenever I try to. And ... wrongly, I looked at
images that I knew were on the computer, I, one of the ... inaccuracies in
the reporting is that I paid for it. I've never paid for it, I've never
registered with a site, I've never been a member of a paedophile ring, I've
never communicated with anybody with interest in, in this sort of thing.
I knew that the stuff was there on there on the internet and freely sitting
there and, and I did look. The other thing ... about my case is that, you
know, people who have a, a, a sick interest in this kind of stuff often
routinely have 100s of 1,000s of images on their computer. I had 15 ... only
four of which I've ever seen and of the four that I saw I only saw the first
few seconds of them because I couldn't bear it, I found them too upsetting
and distasteful and disturbing.
So ... so I looked because I felt that if I was going to tell the story with a
responsible and caring er ... attitude I couldn't just try and tell the bits
of the my story that I remember but I had to try and represent all the
victims of child abuse.
I feel very passionately about it and of course one of the things that its
important ... to remember is that of the children whose abuse is on the
internet those children are the tip of the iceberg and that for every one of
those images there are 1,000s of children who, whose abuse goes unrecorded,
in secret, often in their own homes that we never hear about.
And ... our attitude to it, quite rightly, is one of horror ... But the
problem with that is that there's such a cloud of shame around it and I know
from my own experience that the shame of it is attached to the victims. The
shame of it is attached to the victims as well.
I feel ashamed that I was abused and so it seemed important to try and be able
to bring it out into the open as a subject so that at least we could
understand and discuss it as well as condemn it. Erm as well condemn it, we
should condemn it but we also need to … I mean how easy is it, you know, for
people to, to seek help when they're ashamed of their victimisation? So
that's why I looked and that's why I, I felt a responsibility to try and
carry the story of, of all victims of sexual abuse. And it was wrong of me
to look and er and I'm sorry that I did and I've paid a, a heavy price for
it but, but ...
AB
Because the police said, didn't they, that it was amongst the most shocking
they'd ever seen - these images. They were video clips ranging from a, a few
seconds to, to, to six minutes up to category level five which includes
torture, a rape of a teenage girl, sexual abuse of a 7-year-old and an
assault on a bound and gagged child aged about 12. If you, if you found it
so horrifying to look why did you keep looking?
CL
I, as I've said I looked four times and, and the, the dates of my looking
coincide precisely with the dates of the script that I was writing and the
file of that script is on the same computer as, as the images. And the
reason that I went back was because I couldn't look. Because every time I
tried to I just had to bail out, I would feel physically sick and upset and
I felt you know if you're going to write about this then you have to try and
have the courage to write about it, the reality of it. But as I say I never
managed to look at more than a few seconds and the first time I ever saw ...
the bulk of this stuff was when I was shown it by the police.
AB
And yet even the Appeal Court judges last week said your claim that you viewed
child porn as part of research was highly improbable.
CL
Yes I know, I know, it's, it's a shame that because, you know, obviously for
me in a, in an attempt to clear my names it's very hard for me to give you
evidence of what was in my mind but there is a sort of thought police
element of this which is very difficult to fight which is that, you know,
that ... you know, tell me that if I saw something that was disgusting that
my reaction to it was mmm nice. And I don't know how I can disprove that but
... you know, if you look at a, a ... a painting of the passion of Christ
you know my first assumption is not that you're looking at it because you're
a sadist. My first, my default reaction would be that it's because you feel
compassion.
If you see a picture of the victims of the Holocaust my first erm assumption
is not that you might go out and round up a few Jews. My first reaction
would be to assume that you feel compassion and that it's important for you
to have those pictures so that you understand, as I wanted to understand,
the terrible things that we humans do to each other as a species.
You know the picture of the little girl running from the village in Vietnam
was a non-consensual, war correspondent's photograph of a naked girl running
down a road. That picture did more to ... shorten the war in Vietnam than
any other image that was printed. And yet I mean ... you know I don't
suppose anybody looked at it and thought mmm nice.
But there is an assumption on my part that because I sought out to try and ...
and get to the heart of a problem which I've struggled with all my life
because of my own experience that somehow I found it entertaining and I'm
not that interested in being entertained. I'm more interested in the
extraordinary acts of, of, of cruelty that we humans are capable of and also
I'm interested in the ... extraordinary and unreasonable acts of kindness
that we're capable of.
AB
Did you know it was, it was wrong?
CL
Yes I did. It was wrong and I ...
AB
Or did you just think you weren't going to get found out?
CL
I think in my mind was that because I knew that I was doing it in a
compassionate and sympathetic way, I didn't feel at the time a bad person.
But I knew it was against the law and I shouldn't have done it. I regret
doing it, the, the consequences of my actions you know for my family apart
from anything else have been horrific and, and, you know, as I say, I've,
I've paid a price for that.
AB
Because when you heard about Operation Or you contacted the police didn't you?
To say that you had been ... directed to a child porn site.
CL
That's right yeah.
AB
Was that a lie? Just a straight lie?
CL
No it wasn't er I mean ... One of the reasons presumably that the police put,
that the police put out a press statement saying we're doing this operation
is to encourage, surely, members of the public to say, oh, here's something
that might be helpful to you. But it's a tremendously complicated piece of
double-think to say that I only reacted to it because I felt guilty and was
trying to cover my tracks. What a weird way of covering your tracks.
AB
Now, during the trial you accepted that you'd watched adult porn for many
years and you also said that you were fascinated by people doing weird
sexual things to each other. That would lead some people to, to question
where you draw the line.
CL
I'm interested in you know human behaviour of all kinds and, er, and you know
its people's sexual behaviour, that our, our sexual ... personalities are a
very powerful dynamic you know. And its, you know, I mean just look at, look
around you ... a lot of what we're interested in is sexual. A lot of ...
what entertains us is sexual, you know a lot of advertising is sexual. We,
you know, we are sexual beings and I think that's an appropriate thing if
you're interested in human beings, I think its an appropriate part of your
interest. But, as I say, I'm not just interested in that, I'm equally
interested, as I said, in, you know, extraordinary acts of kindness. I find
equally fascinating improbable and, and riveting as I do, you know, the
ghastly, hideous things that we do to each other.
AB
You, you said that you were abused yourself and as an 8-year-old child, is
something that you've blocked out. Do you fear by looking at these pictures
that you've helped fuel an industry which leads to children being abused?
CL
I hope I have not fuelled an industry that leads to children being abused and
that's why it, you know, although I'm not in a position to draw nice moral
distinctions I, I've, I would never have paid to look at something like this
because I would have felt very, very ... uncomfortable about fuelling an
industry that I completely disapprove of. And ... you know, the problem
under law is there is no good reason for ever having seen the images that
I've seen. There is no excuse for it, there is no defence under law for
doing it and in a way although it, you know, its taking a sledgehammer to
crack something it, it ... I kind of agree. I think these, and I feel
awkward about this because I'm a passionate believer in free speech, but as
a parent I hate the idea that this stuff is freely available on the internet
and that my children might stumble on it.
AB
Is there any small part of your head that asks yourself am I unnaturally
interested in this?
CL
No. No I think one of the great things of, I mean if there ... I don't
recommend it, but one of the, one of the things about the process that I've
been though, when you've had everything stripped away from you – reputation,
dignity, income, everything's gone - and you look at what's left and what's
left is me and I've been able to really have a look at myself and I know in
my heart that I've, I have no, I'm passionately care about the welfare of
children and I've never had a thought of, you know, I wonder what it would
be like if, or I wonder what it would be like to, I just don't have that in
me. I don't have a fibre of my being that is sexually interested in
children. And I have a life time of evidence of never having touched a child
appropriate-inappropriately, of never had a thought like that in my head.
AB
And yet, of course, the downloading charges weren't the only ones you face,
you stood accused in court also of, of grooming and abusing a teenager. Did
that, you were acquitted obviously, but did that add to the problems that
you've had with your reputation do you think?
CL
Yes ... and of course this, this stuff sticks.
That's the problem with it is that even though I was acquitted of all of those
charges I've noticed that the press still carry the sort of echo of those
charges in everything that they report as if though, you know, no smoke
without fire kind of thing.
And it, it did make things very much more difficult for me that those, that
those allegations were brought. But they were untrue and they and the jury,
you know, heard the evidence and acquitted me of them completely.
I came ... I, I've come under some criticism for having plead not guilty to
the images charges but when the other allegations were brought the
prosecution made it very clear that those allegations would support their
case, that I looked at the images because I had a sexual interest in
children and that their, the main thrust of the prosecution was to prove
that I'm a paedophile.
And I could not in all conscious stand up in court and say that I was guilty
of that because it would have been a lie. And I, I have always told the
truth throughout the whole of this. And so I had to plead not guilty to
everything.
If the Prosecution had said what we're charging you with - what we're, what
we're erm going to prosecute you for is what you've been charged with, which
is seeing these images, I would have said yes. And indeed I did say yes to
the police as soon as they arrived and arrested me, I said yes in my
statement to the police, I took full responsibility for downloading the
images.
I've never tried to run away from that but I could not in all conscience stand
up in a court of law, on oath and say that I was guilty to being a
paedophile because I'm not one. It would have been a lie.
AB
Do you fear that you will always be labelled as somebody who's interested in
children?
CL
Well ... the problem that ... that I have is that, you know, every time I say
I'm not a paedophile, in the newspaper it says Langham says he's not a
paedophile, and there's a sentence which has ‘Langham' and ‘paedophile' in
the same sentence and so, you know, I, it'll take the time it takes but er,
you know, I, I intend to … to, you know, live my life as well I can while
I'm waiting for everybody to get used to the idea that I'm not one.
AB
You talked about after your arrest that you, you wanted to die, you wanted to
kill yourself effectively. Have you got past that point now and, and where
have you felt the strength?
CL
Erm the day that I actually started walking around looking for a hosepipe to
attach to the car exhaust I had a phone call from a guy in AA who I'd helped
get to his first couple of meetings and I hadn't heard from him for about 6
months.
And I took his call and I'm walking around with the phone in my hand looking
for the erm … hosepipe to attach to the car exhaust. And he said, “listen,
I'm really sorry to ring you, I know you haven't heard from me for a while,
but I'm thinking of killing myself can you give me any reason why I
shouldn't?”
And I started telling him why I thought it would be a bad idea and … I heard
myself talk myself out of it. And since then ... you know, you ... maybe you
think I'm a bit of a sort of Pollyanna, you know, looking on the bright side
when I have no right to, but … in any experience there is stuff that you can
get from it and learn from it and its been a very interesting journey going
through this.
And even, you know, being in prison … you know, with … the people's opinion of
me being, being negative, you know … what do I do with that? How do I deal
with that? What does that, what change does that have to make me have
towards my own relationship with myself. Should I buy into it? Should I
decide that I'm a bad person? And one of the great things about having
everything stripped away is, you know, you get to, you get left with who you
are and as someone with, you know, extremely low self-esteem and I've never
been, I've never been very keen on me in the first place. But … you know, I
had a good look and actually I'm alright. I'm an alright person whatever the
… you know, the word on the street is. Erm I feel, I feel ok about myself.
AB
How much do you want to be rehabilitated in the, in the Court of Public
Opinion?
CL
Erm for the sake of my children a lot. For my own sake I think that I, you
know, I've been sent this as … you know, it's just a kind of gift to try and
make what I can out of and er I, I, its up, its not my job to tell people
what they should think about me.
I just need to go on living my life in, in an appropriate way as I've always
tried to do and as I say when they're ready to, to change their mind about
me they will.
Er, I, I completely accept that what I did was wrong and I've been punished
for it. Erm I, I, what I don't accept, if I'm asked the question, is that my
thinking was evil or … sexual deviant, you know, and although the papers use
words like paedo and pervert and sicko I know that I'm not that.
And I just have to allow people the time to get used to the idea that I'm not.
Less interesting though it may be that actually I'm, you know, sadly I'm
quite [laughs] a dull person really.
When I got home the first thing I did was I made some er, er tomato chutney
'cause that's, you know that's what I'm really interested in is, you know,
just being a person with a life and a family and you know I've never sought
… there's, there is that argument that you know that well, you know, you
sought being a celebrity, you decided to want to er to be in the public eye
so now you've gotta take the … the er breaks.
And, and I've never been interested in being well-known or famous or a
celebrity. I, I've only ever tried to do my job as well as I can. The reason
why I act and write is 'cause I love the work and my only interest has ever
been in getting another job so that I can support my family. Whenever I've
got awards or … nice reviews or something I've always been a bit baffled by
it because all I do is I do work that I love as well as I can in order to
earn money to support my family.
AB
What about the impact on your family? Your three older children were in court,
you've got two younger ones, when you were charged you were forbidden from
being alone with them because they're of a, a similar age to some of the
victims in some of the images. How did that make you feel?
CL
Erm, it made me feel very sad because I take being a parent very seriously. My
three older boys have been fantastic and it was just wonderful when, you
know, when, when the, the chips are down and you really sort of are relying
on people to, to show their colours you know what fine young men they are.
I just felt so proud of them, just lovely, lovely young men and very loving
and very supportive and completely with me every step of the way.
And I you know I've just got … great gratitude for them and, and, and my, my
younger kids have, have been, they've weathered this well and we've taken
every piece of advice we could possibly take as to how to help them through
this as well as we possibly could and they've, they've been great you know
and they're just, they're just delighted that I'm home.
AB
I mean it's tough on everybody isn't it? Tough financially as well, 10s of
1,000s of pounds no doubt on legal fees. Do you need to work urgently? Is
money …
CL
I have no money
AB
You have no money
CL
I have no money, no. But, you know, I had the feeling that because of the sort
of terrible taboo and the shame around this particular subject, it's an
awful subject that, you know, oh maybe I'll never work again and I, you
know, I've only been out of prison a few days and already people are saying
so, you know, are you ready to work yet?
And I've been very gratified to find that, you know, there are people who are
still interested in working with me and I'll take a bit of time to decide
what to do but when the right project comes along then I'll certainly do it
because you know I need to earn a living.
AB
Is there a comedy series in this for you?
CL
I don't think so at the moment, no.
AB
Too serious a subject?
CL
It's yeah, its, it's been very painful and I just need a bit of time to kind
of process it. You know, but I am the sort of person who tries to, you know,
I've been though difficulties in my life before and I think there's always
an opportunity in, in difficulty to find something creative in it and, and
use it constructively to live a better life and be more helpful to others.
I mean that's really you know the AA programme, the Alcoholic's Anonymous
programme, which I've been working for 20 years now. I don't know what I
would have done without that, you know, going through this whole experience
and in prison I was able to rely on the practice that I've put in that,
that, you know, the time that I've banked if you like working in a, a good
programme really paid off. And, and I was able to, to, you know, deal with
difficulties in an appropriate way. What's my responsibility and what's none
of my business and if its my responsibility I need to deal with it
appropriately and well and if its not any of my business then I just need to
leave it alone.
AB
Is it over? Is the worst over as far as you're concerned?
CL
I think so. I mean I think there's going to be this kind of interview which
is, which is difficult and I feel, you know, in the dock again and I find
that, I find that difficult because again I feel that I'm, I'm always being,
as you say, people will always be thinking but I wonder whether really
secretly he's got those thoughts.
And I don't how else to, to combat that except, you know, I've, one of the
things that I'm known as ... bizarrely is as one of the most open people
that I know. I mean I, you know, I'm a completely open person and I just
have to go on being that and hopefully after a while people will begin to
realise that there is only one me and, you know, this is who I am.
I made a terrible mistake, I shouldn't have done what I did. It was arrogant
of me to think well I'm above the law because my feelings are so lovely and
my, you know, I think that I'm on a mission to do something to do some good
and it does - its none of that is an excuse.
I, the, the, these are images that should not be seen by anybody and, and I
looked at them and I was wrong to. And I've paid the price for that and the
one thing that I now have to fight for is the right to be able to be trusted
that my thoughts are wholesome, that my thoughts have always been
compassionate and creative and, and positive about you know us funny human
beings and what weird and terrible things we sometimes do to each other.
AB
Chris Langham thank you.
"Given that currently most peoples reaction to any mention of child abuse is about as reasoned as a discussion on witchcraft in the 17th century"
I didn't think Witches existed? Peadophiles are very real!
Aimee , Bath , UK
I'm so glad that there are people around who have the sense to see this for what it actually was. It was not an excuseable action, he has committed a crime, however he is being treated in the media and by many of the public as if he actually abused children himself. This is not a witch hunt, and it's largely being treated like one.
Jen, York,
I must admit I do not believe him about wanting to write it into the script for 'help', but I understand entirely his fascination for the unusual and bizarre things that humans do to, with, and for each other. He does indeed raise valid points amongst other statements I find more spurious.
I would be disappointed if this episode meant his continued vilification by the public at large or the entertainment industry, to which I think he is a huge creative asset.
Jay Wood, Petersfield, Hants
Most people in society are guilty of commiting acts contrary to generally percieved moral or legal laws. This does not mean that EVERYONE should be found guilty and incarcerated.
I believe Chris in what he has said about his NOT being a paedophile. Just looking at a few pictures for reasons of editorial, or past personal pain, should not be considered sufficient to imprison and label a good, caring man with the stigma that he wil have to bear through his life.
I feel that Chris has been victimised because of his publicly known name.
I admire his fortitude in facing his punishment and his possibly painful future, and wish him all the best for the future.
Dave C., Wallasey, UNITED KINGDOM
Given that currently most peoples reaction to any mention of child abuse is about as reasoned as a discussion on witchcraft in the 17th century, it is highly laudable that Chris Langham has not hidden in shame, but has come forward and presented his perspective on his crime and punishment. It is also highly laudable that Sky News and The Times have published the interview in full.
I would like to think that given the opportunity, somehow, in some form, Chris will utilize this entire episode and his talent as a writer to provide some genuinely positive outcome for victims of abuse such as himself.
Providing enlightenment for society as a whole may be rather more challenging.
Malcolm Parker, Hook, UK
In the reports Chris Langham had class 5 images on his computer, which the Judge said were amongst the most horrific depictions of Child Abuse.
He has not paid his debt to society, he has no debt to society. He has a debt to Abused children.
Perhaps instead of this type of interview to try and rehabilitate himself, he should find a way to help the abused quietly through charitable works. Then maybe he would realise his crime fully.
At the moment his hypocritical interview blaming peoples perceptions of him just grates .
Howard, Basildon, England
Sorry Chris, I just don't beleive you.
If someone dowloaded a video of concenratio camp victims being gassed or tortured, NO I would not assume that they were watching it out of compassion. What a weak argument, I recommend you stop using it.
Of course you don't beleive that what you did is wrong. As a human we find all sorted of ways to kid ourselves that there are valid reasons for our actions. But please don't expect us to believe you too.
Danny, London, UK
I've always thought that Chris Langham is a good actor.
This interview proves me right.
Annie, Australia,
Langham makes a lot of valid points.
No, his behaviour is not excusable.
But yes, he has been vilified beyond all proportion - as he says, a lot of people are caught with far more images on their computers and get much more lenient sentences.
There are a lot of charities and lobbying groups out there seeking to exploit Langham's celebrity status and make an example of him - they insinuate that his sentence has been too lenient when the reality is that he was treated more harshly than a non-celebrity would have been under the same circumstances.
He has paid his debt to society and should be allowed to continue with his life now.
Charles Thomson, London, England
I'm prepared to accept that this man was doing research.
Downloading these images is illegal, but then, how can we solve the problem of child abuse if somebody doesnt investigate the matter.Im not saying it shouldnt be illegal and children do need to be protected beause they can be manipulated into doing things they are not aware of...so yes they need protection....but as far as I'm concerned, this man was doing resesarch, he made the error of thinking that would protect him, but he was wrong.
Hell there are terrible things on the Net ( No Mister Brown, apart from child Porn, I wouldnt want anything censored, its about the only free speech we have left )
I've visited Jihad sites, does that automatically mean I am a terrorist.....we are slipping down a slippery slope here, convicting terrorists' simply because they have looked at terrorist material or even if they have downloaded terrorist material does not OF ITSELF mean they are a threat...I feel we are losing something here
British Patriot, Luton, Britain
Thank you for a tremendous interview with Chris Langham.
I hope he can slowly begin to put his life back together, his honesty is compelling and I for one believe his explanation of events.
Natalie French, London , England
I find it interesting that Chris Langham is given the dignity of a response, when many victims of child abuse are deprived of their dignity by their perpetrators.
He needs help, either because he is abnormally naive or because he harbours a sick fascination.
Sarah Aldridge, Oxford,
Well I believe him. He should never have gone to prison and all those who think he's a pedophile need to read that interview and put themselves in his shoes. He's been silly and he knows it but the punishment was very very harsh.
Dave Bragham, Stockton,