Richard Ford, Home Correspondent
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Youths who carry knives face tougher sentences under new guidelines to be agreed at Downing Street talks on violent crime today.
Anyone over the age of 16 who is caught with a knife will face automatic prosecution and risk a jail sentence of up to four years.
The change, rushed through after a spate of stabbings, could affect hundreds of youths who until now have escaped with a caution or a warning. It reflects growing frustration among police forces across the UK at the number of offenders who admit possessing a knife in public but who are not prosecuted in the courts.
The new guidelines will be announced at a knife crime meeting led by Gordon Brown. They will be discussed with Jacqui Smith, the Home Secretary; Ken Jones, the leader of Britain’s chief constables; Sir Ken Macdonald, QC, Director of Public Prosecutions; and Baroness Scotland of Asthal, QC, the Attorney-General.
Police will press for the new rule to be put into law rather than just being issued as guidance. They say that this will strengthen the position of officers dealing with knife crimes.
Mr Brown told MPs in the Commons yesterday that it was unacceptable to carry knives. The Prime Minister sent his condolences to the families of those who had suffered as a result of knife crime in recent weeks.
He added: “Every parent will want their teenage sons and daughters not only to be safe but feel safe in our neighbourhoods. That’s why knives are unacceptable and we’ve got to do everything in our power to deter them.
“That’s why the whole House will agree that it is right that the presumption that we prosecute should now extend to 16-year-olds as well.”
The Association of Chief Police Officers had been drawing up the first set of national guidelines to be issued to every force in England and Wales recommending the prosecution of anyone over the age of 18 found in possession of a knife. After a series of attacks involving younger people, the association has now lowered the age to 16.
The guidance says there should be an expectation that anyone over 16 should be charged and prosecuted in court. However, ministers have to decide yet which policy to adopt towards those under 16, as they do not want to criminalise children.
The Government is resisting pressure from the Police Federation, which represents rank and file officers, for a minimum sentence for anyone caught in possession of a knife. It will remain for the courts to decide whether someone convicted should be fined, given a community punishment or sent to jail.
Latest figures from the Ministry of Justice show that in 2006 more than half of all those over the age of 10 caught in possession of a knife received a caution or final warning. A total of 3,330 were cautioned and 2,987 convicted in the courts.
About 95 per cent of 10 to 17-year-olds found with a knife were cautioned in 2006.
The figures also show that since 1997 only six people who were convicted of possessing a knife received the old maximum two-year prison sentence. Figures are not yet available for how many have been given the new four- year maximum sentence because it came into force only in February.
Ken Jones, president of the Association of Chief Police Officers, said: “Recently a worrying trend has emerged in relation to knife crime. We are seeing both an intensification in the severity of offending, and a worrying change in the age profile of offenders and victims.
“We need to send out a signal to those who carry knives for no good reason, that they can expect the police service to do its best to get them before a court.”
However, senior police officers want to ensure that the new guidance will be flexible enough to allow for what one source described as “common-sense policing” by officers.
The Police Federation gave warning that without robust policing, laws and penalties would not deal with the problem. Simon Reed, vice-chairman, said: “We need police officers on the streets encountering these people and making them think they are going to be caught.”
Cult of the blade
200 - Knives seized in two weeks during recent stop-and-search operations in London
10% - Of 11-to 12-year-olds admit carrying a knife in the past year
25% - Of 15-to 16-year-olds admit the same
20% - Of 16-year-olds say they have used a knife with intention of seriously harming someone
3.5 - Times more knife crimes committed in Scotland than in England or Wales
57% - Of excluded pupils aged 11 to 17 admit carrying knives
29% - Of pupils in London have carried knives
Sources: BCS; Metropolitan Police; www.crimeinfo.org.uk; Youth Justice Board
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First you ban guns and then knives. What is next? You guys will probably be requiring a license for a cricket bat or whatever you play over there.
Dan, GJ, USA
These bloody knives aren't our problem,,,we need violence prevention programs in the schools and keep youth off the street in in recreational programs..carrying a knife is a fad that comes and goes every 5 years
Andrew, London,
Why worry about not criminalizing children? If they walk like ducks and quack like ducks ... , says Sarah of Ottawa.
I totally agree.
Once again we have politicians thinking more about the rights of perpetrators than victims.
An underage yob can stab just as well as one well into his teens.
Nick, London, UK
I have carried a pocket knife for as long as I remember, the current one for about 25 years. It has a short blade and locks open, which stops it folding onto my fingers during use. In a previous knee jerk act, it became illegal to carry it because of the lock. I now live in France.
Keith Wilson, Beziers, France
Why worry about not criminalizing children? If they walk like ducks and quack like ducks ...
Where were the parents when these kids were small? No self-discipline, no respect for themselves = no respect for others = criminal behaviour.
Sarah, Ottawa, ON, Canada
Canada, UK and US - anglo-saxon heritage - all respond the same way: ban this & that, does this common trait represent a political genetic malady of our cultures?
The cure is called PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY, and less 'nanny' statism, which makes people safer - not banning some inanimate objects.
Gishere joan, phoenix, usa
It's all very well doubling the minimum sentence to 4 years, but when the sentence is seldom applied - six times? give me a break! - it's meaningless, and kids know it.
Mike, Brighton, England
This from the CPS website re knife carrying
" . . . there will be a number of compelling public interest factors in favour of prosecution . . . "
Why so many cautions?
The truth is this government has made no provision for detaining criminals so just smack their wrists and let them go.
R Bingham, Lauzun, France
What is so special about knives? Ban knives, some other implement such as a chain worn as a belt will be used.
People feel unsafe walking the streets because there is inadequate policing, and a weapon for self defence is seen as a necessary precaution - carry a heavy walking stick at all times!
Chris Robinson, Hong Kong, Hong Kong
"However, ministers have to decide yet which policy to adopt towards those under 16, as they do not want to criminalise children."
So if you get stabbed by someone under 16, the consolation is that you're not a crime victim. Well that's a relief !
BRP, London, Middx
Yaaaawn.... another knee-jerk reaction by a government completely out of its depth. Over 16s.... does ANY of these people ever get out of their taxpayer-funded limos onto the streets of London ???
Chris, London,
Brittons, if you tottally forbid the possession of fire arms you will get knife troubles. If you tottally ban knives you WILL get sticks and stones. The problem is not the instrument. It is indeed getting more violent out there, there IS a problem but the instruments not its cause.
Rui, Lisbon, Portugal
"Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime" (TB) Yawn, yawn - nothing will happen - hasn't in the last 10 years, though it undoubtedly needs to. The feral youths don't give a damn and where would we/could we put them even if the judiciary were to start handing out the appropriate punishments?
Milo, Uckfield, UK
No police on the streets.
No room in the prisons.
No provision for under 16s.
No difference.
Just words RIP
Ian, Berwick , UK
Abandon the namby pamby european human rights policy that is destroying our country and bring back severe corpral punishment.
The jails are full and like a butlins holiday camp anyway.
James Robertson, Aberdeen,
Hypocritical of the government to ban knifes carried for deterrence, considering that for the past half century they've spent billions on considerably more deadly weapons under the same doctrine.
Joseph, Moshi, Tanzania
Does this mean that I can be prosecuted for carrying the Swiss army knife that Ive carried for years and has been used in that time for a multitude of purposes? Or can we expect to see intelligent policing. Or is that a paradox?
Keith, France,
Anyone carrying a knife should pay a fine, if they can't pay it, their parents will, if not benefits off for a few months. This will hurt them hard, harder than going to jail for a few days to watch telly
P.J, london, uk
People werent prosecuted for carrying a sword,only for the illegal use,HANGING,was then a deterent,the worry of killing .Duels maybe an answer.
derek bevan, Huntingdon, England
I suppose we will just have to hope the police are capable of setting a "good reason" we could all agree on.
Unless they're building 250,000 new prison places, more promises to be forgotten about.
Dominic, Manchester, England
What about the under 16s !! the Solicitors will make a KILLING from this legislation,(KNIFE)?
derek bevan, Huntingdon, England
Listen up ! Within the gang structure the weapons are routinely carried by the under 16's. These children are already criminals. Wise up !
Vic, London, UK
I would also like to see more summary justice - at present it takes much too long for someone caught red-handed with a large knife to be prosecuted and sentenced. Bang them up straight away. No bail, no 'social reports', just check if they have previous, for anything.
Tony, Oxford,
Zaphod is exactly right. I carry a swiss Army knife too. And always shall do. Incredibly useful tool.
Paul , London,
why do all these politicians and functionaries talk about "frightened" youths carrying knives for their "protection". Who are youths afraid of? - youths carrying knives out of bravado and to get power over their peers - target that behaviour and there is less need for fear and "defensive" knives.
David Kirkham, Highland, Scotland
It won't work, because we have treated the prisoner better than poor hard work people. If teenagers view the prison as a holiday centre, how would they be afraid of being prosecuted?!
John , London,
So you'll get groups of teenagers, with one of them under 16, carrying the knife(s). Will the new 'law' make a difference, of course not. Kids are scared of nothing these days.
Arthur, Newcastle,
And where are they going to put them to serve their 4 year sentence?
Dee Bee, Bournemouth, England
As it remains for the courts to decide if those prosecuted are fined, given community service or jailed it'll make little difference. The courts know the jails are full and won't be sending anyone to prison for carrying a knife unless it has been used to kill or severely wound. Fined! That'll deter.
Donna Walker, Effingham, England
Carrying a knife is deadly as having a gun, they are both deadly, they need longer jail time
mohsen, malaga, spain
Prosecution, if found guilty, has to be followed up with a meaningful punishment.
The Prime Minister should be holding talks with those responsible for 'sentencing guidelines'.
Mike, Gravesend, England
The problem is the definition of 'good cause'.
I carry a knife all day whilst going about my business. It is a small penknife and it's a tool I use many times daily.
Am I going to be sent to jail for two years for carrying a swiss army knife?
It's another knee jerk reaction and [no more space]
Zaphod, Chichester, England
Oh, gosh, they are going to prosecute them? You KNOW their answer--"So what? Prosecution is completely and totally meaningless unless there is some substantial punishment meted out to the guilty. Community service? Listen--you can hear the hoodlums laughing already.
Bob Evans, Anaheim, California
The upward spiral of violence involving knife crime solely rests with the sections of our community who protested about their infringement of civil liberties in the 80's and 90's. Now that our youth are running riot with impunity, (protected by the human rights act ) this should not be a surprise.
Andy, Walton on Thames, Surrey
How many years have we heard about Labour crackdowns and initiatives... this is just another set of meetings, statements and speeches... nothing will change.
Paul, Barnet,
Once again the government are pussy-footing around the problem, why set the age at 16? Anyone who is caught carrying a knife (without a realistic reason), regardless of age should receive an automatic minimum custodial sentence, giving someone a 'slap on the wrist' is no deterent.
Les, Southport, England
The real question is: will this or any other government be willing to incarcerate the number of youths that will be found to be carrying knives? Present practice would indicate no.
Christopher Marks, Boca Raton, USA
Tough on crime - I don't think so!
If the PM is serious about anti-social / criminal behaviour, then regardless of age, anyone carrying a knife (without good cause) should be prosecuted, and if below the current age of criminal responsibility, then parents / guardians should be criminalised.
David, West Bridgford Nottingham, UK