Ben Webster, Transport Correspondent
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Airline passengers may be required to sit facing the rear of the aircraft by a new seating layout designed to pack more people in as well as giving everyone more legroom. Ten airlines, including one British carrier, are considering turning half their economy-class seats to face the opposite way to the other half to squeeze in an extra column of seats along the aircraft.
Airlines could add up to 50 seats to each aircraft and increase the seat pitch, the gap between one seat and the seat in front, by four inches (10cm). But they would have to persuade passengers to spend up to 15 hours facing the back of the aircraft and trying to avoid eye contact with passengers facing the other way. People in the rear-facing seats would have a slightly greater chance of surviving a crash landing.
The “yin-yang” seating formation has been developed by a British company and is being unveiled this week at an exhibition in Hamburg.
The Premium Aircraft Interiors Group (PAIG), which has been designing aircraft seats since 1933, has developed rear-facing seats for the British Airways business-class cabin. It has produced an economy-class layout in which neighbouring seats face in opposite directions.
The traditional seating layout is constrained by people sitting shoulder-to-shoulder. This typically means leaving a two-inch gap between seats for an armrest. Under the new layout, one person’s shoulders would be alongside his neighbour’s knees, removing a gap.
By saving on the armrest space an extra seat could be fitted in each row. A Boeing 777 could have ten-abreast seating instead of nine-abreast, allowing an extra 21 seats. A double-deck Airbus A380 could have 50 more seats. Boeing and Airbus have approved the design and PAIG is negotiating with ten potential customers.
Ben Bettell, the company’s development director, said that the layout would increase the economy-class seat pitch on long-haul flights from 32 to 34 inches. “It also ends the battle of elbows for that sweetspot on the armrest and you can use your laptop without people peering over your shoulder.”
He admitted that tests had shown that some passengers might feel uncomfortable with being able to establish eye contact with neighbours. So the company has added a privacy screen at eye level that is pulled out from the seat in front.
Mr Bettell said: “For a small loss of personal privacy you get a big gain in personal space. Parents will welcome it because they will be able to face their children.”
BA said that rear-facing seats were popular in business class and it would consider them for economy passengers.
David Learmount, safety editor of Flight International magazine, said the RAF used rear-facing seats on its passenger aircraft because they were believed to be safer. Rather than being thrown forward in a crash, people facing the rear are pressed back into their seats.
“The RAF can order personnel to travel this way but airlines have to keep passengers happy and the tradition has developed of having seats facing forward.”
Malcolm Ginsberg, editor of Air & Business Travel News, said: “Passengers will be suspicious that this is just another way for airlines to squeeze more people in and make more money. But an airline seeking to take a lead by doing something different might pioneer it. I can imagine one of the A380 customers taking a brave leap.”
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I hope they are joking. Passengers are human beings; not, freight to be packed as tightly; nor, as efficiently as possible.
The original National Airlines (which was absorbed into Pan Am), in the United States, had forward facing seats that ingeniously slid forward to recline. The seat back did not tilt into the person behind you. If you chose to recline, you lost a little leg room; but, the person behind you lost no space at all. I would love to see those seats come back.
I, for one, fly less now than I did when the airlines treated their passengers as people; instead of a commodity. Security concerns force us to arrive at the airport much earlier than before; but, food service has been curtailed. There are less non-stops and more connections. The airlines think they need to run one small plane every hour; instead of one larger plane every three hours. No wonder there are regular non-weather related delays. Additional planes = crowded runways and flight paths.
Robert, Caldwell, NJ, USA
Economy? What's that? Oh right.... downstairs at the back of the plane- I can vaguely remember it!
HUGE fan of rear facing seats here - I fly BA club almost weekly, and it is definitely my preferred method as all I always have a rear facing window now.
The issue with this is not rear facing, its the sheer 'pack em and stack em' mentality of economy cabins nowadays and how this will affect that. I suspect it would actually give more perceived room, although whether this is actually the case remains to be seen. You could end up in a situation of fighting for legroom with the person facing you! But then, it beats having some berk reclining into you for 7 hours doesn't it?
I'm all for it and could see it working very well.
Failing that, work harder, earn more, and fly business class then legroom won't be an issue for you!
Reggie, NYC/London, US/Uk
Hey! Great idea! Not only will parents be able to face their children, the rest of us will be able to enjoy a full view of the screamers and the pretzel throwing darlings. And what about the passengers of 'normal' weight who spill over onto their neighbors? Do they also get to invade the space of the passenger facing them? Or will they be required to purchase extra leg room along with an extra seat for their (normal) width? (not that I've ever witnessed this policy being enforced; don't get me started there) I'd rather spend an extra fifty per flight than experience either.
Mary, Fort Myers, Florida
I work for an airline, when I travel, I want to have my space. BA is smart from a financial view, but please remember your customers. A few inches is major in the big picture. More seats...rear facing means uncomfortable. Do you want to be stared at for hours on end? What about feet on your seat???? No thanks!!!!
Janice, USA,
Why don't the airlines charge for anybody who actually sits down on a flight? The airlines could enforce a standing up only rule with one arm required to ''hold on'' during turbulance/takeoff/landing and then the government could tax us more on the extra deodourant we use?The air companies could get stacks more passengers inside the cabins-exactly like what the rail/tube/metro companies are currently getting away!How about squeezing some in the cargo hold itself?There is sure to be room now that passengers are forced to pay extra for baggage weight! How about making some flights self service and getting rid of the need of the costly wages of cabin crew and what about fully auto pilot for the whole duration of a flight? We have self service tills in supermarkets!Mad ideas?Hmm.. Bet ya some consultants are sitting somewhere throwing ideas around a table... Who thought up online/'insert credit card here' self checkin desks? Who inspired to dispose of complimentary peanuts???? Pah!!!!
KLEIN, MANCHESTERFORDSHIRE, UK
Ranaud of NY. I LOVE flying in BA's rear facing biz seat. Sure it's odd at the start but once I got used to it, it was fine.
But this is Biz class. Economy may be different. There was plenty of room up front to get out etc. I think if they introduce this for the back of the plane, then the seat pitch should be 38"
Den Ross, London, The United Kingdom
The BA rear facing seat is constructed to counteract the angle of climb - the electronic controls have a specific take off/landing position. I wonder if the same technology will be available to an economy seat. Rear facing seats on a modern aircraft do not have the same issues as a train - there is not the same awareness of the forward motion.
I have used the current BA rear facing and those used by the airline industry in the past. Only problem now is the last row of Club - take off and landing in full view of the Traveller cabins and nowhere to look (the crew insist that all items are stowed in Club for take off and landing; including books)
Linda, Horsham, UK
Superficially a bright idea but not likely to work well in practice. A "ying-yang" arrangement might allow 10 seats per row instead of 9 but the increased seat pitch and the need for extra bulkhead clearance to access all seats will lose at least one seat row in each class of seating. In a typical 3 class configuration one is likely to end up without any advantage in seat capacity.
Worse still, the "ying -yang" arrangement means that , with the exception of seats on the aisle, people will be trapped between reclined seat backs on a long haul flight and unable to get out to a toilet !
Finally, the "ying-yang" arrangement incurs some weight penalty because of the strengthening of the seat back and base required by aft facing seats to meet crash load criteria and the associated strengthening of the aircraft floor structure.
Nice try though !
Malcolm Bowden, Atlanta GA, USA
The U.S. Air Force uses rear facing seats on the C-5, there are 73 seats in the upsatirs passenger compartment and the old C-141 used rear facing seats when the passenger "trips" were installed in lieu of the sidewall seating. I have never had any problem facing backward or forward or seated sideways for that matter. However I am as others have mentioned suspicious of anything the airline industry is planning to do for customers.
Jim, Northridge, California
Southwest Airlines in the US had some rear-facing seats in some aircraft of its all-737 fleet, but these have since been removed, unfortunately...it was a fun way to fly!
Greg, Boulder, Colorado, US
I still have to find one person to tell me that he or she likes flying backwards in BA's business class. I personally do not appreciate it and I do not believe one word of the airline's claim that it is popular (except maybe for some marketing agents in charge of promoting this oddity).
It is, I believe, only popular with the airline industry's incommensurable greed, always trying every imaginable trick in order to pack their planes to the hilt.
Most airlines should at least admit that they do not consider their customers as human beings anymore but rather, and at best, as mere commodities.
Where will they stop? Are straphangers next? It might be proposed sooner than expected...!
Renaud, New York, NY, USA
Not new, as mentioned, in the USA. Southwest Airlines had 737/200 planes with a few rows rear facing. Just phased them out as recently as 4 years ago. Taking off is the primary drawback in my opinion, but it can be nice to sit across from ones you know. The "privacy screen" ought to be interesting. The social gesture of blocking out the person across/next to you is classic. Wow. "Hello, have a good flight. You will not see or here from me the rest of the way. Goodbye."
Ron, Dallas, USA, Texas
I don't agree at all with rear facing seats. After flying in rear facing seats in some private aircraft, I can't see doing it all the time. It can get uncomfortable flying butt first during an extended climbout. Some aircraft have a nose high attitude during cruise, which can also make you uncomfortable.
The only aircraft I had a great time on flying backwards, was when Continental had them at tables on their DC-10's.
The DC-10 had a fairly flat flight attitude, allowing good using of table seating.
William Willis, Roselle, USA / Ill
What a fabulous idea, but I'd go one better - they should go for some sort of multi-tier layout laid out like those appalling drawings of slave ships from days gone by. Why mess around with an in-between layout, when they can go straight to the maximum of discomfort? They could also perhaps cut out the aisles and have doors on every row. This would have the advantage of shortening the turnaround time at airports and increase operating efficiency. Take out the windows,too - glass is heavy. Oh yes, I forgot. Trains would make more efficient use of space if all the seats faced the same way, but for 50% of journeys, they would face backwards in each carriage.
And another thought - why don't they just stagger the backs of adjacent seats but keep them facing the same way? It would have the same effect, and I would imagine that it would be no less impossible to get out of the plane in an emergency than this mad idea.
Stuart, Worthing, UK
Not much more than twenty years ago, the car industry thought we would put up with cars with no soundproofing, painted dashboards, wind-up windows, no radio, even no heater. The consumer got fed up with being treated like cattle and now car makers move steadily towards mroe comfortable cars.
I for one am sick of being treated like cattle when I fly, and I am dubious of the benefit to me of this new layout.
Any airline that offers genuine comfort and space without expecting me to fork out for the airline equivalent of a Rolls Royce seat gets my vote. The cheapy airlines are driving down the standard for everyone in the name of cost (and for not that cheap, either). It's time the consumer rebelled.
Cliff, Banchory,
I have flown on BA in Business Class several times. Twice I flew backwards. While the sensation didn't bother me, the fact was, that the only way to keep from looking at the person next to me was to close the screen. This in fact, also shuts out a significant part of your view in the aircraft and can be claustrophobic to some.
Additionally, with the screen closed and sitting by the window, the air crew seemed to forget about me. I actually flew from London to Philadelphia in Business Class, without a single crew person asking if I would like something to drink.
While that has a lot to do with BA service, the reality is that when you are boxed in you are practically invisible.
Lastly, if you are flying with your very special person and you want to hold hands --- You can't.
Bill R, Jenkintown, PA USA
When using the trains I always ask for a backing seat, and would be only to glad to fly in one.
Mr P J Blow, Cambridge,
I remember back in the '70s I and other young pilots, airline enthusiasts and industry professionals both wondered aloud and inquired to the FAA (among other sources) why commercial airlines don't adopt the military pax configuration and have most -if not all- of the seats facing the rear, since multiple studies determined (back then) the survivability of a crash would be greater for the passengers if they face backwards.
The "story/reason/excuse" from all of the solicited establishments (including the FAA, airlines, etc) was the single, "For passenger convenience/aestetics only, "we" have them facing forward because it's better to look where you're going than where you have been."
Nice to see some bored execs wake up 30 years onward to the obvious!
Roger Anderson, Gaithersburg, MD
Business jets typically have half their seats facing the rear and are always the last to be filled. I find I am more prone to travel sickness in a rear facing seat. In fact in 40 years of air travel, the only time I actually had to use a bag was when I was faceing the rear.
Keith Hughes, Phoenix, AZ
1) I have always been told that there is a certain percentage of the flying public who become nauseous if forced to fly sitting backwards. Alas, I cannot cite a study.
2) It is simplistic to say rearward-facing seats are safer in a crash. The change in inertia loads alters the reaction loads at the seat footing / floor rail attachments, and may actually require beefier structure be installed.
Wilbur Wrong, Atlanta, GA -- US
I get physically sick traveling backwards on any mode of transportation. This is not a pleasant sight for the person facing me and makes for a very long uncomfortable flight for me. I was seated backwards on a 10 hour flight and will never do it again! Nobody would switch seats with me either.
Susan, Seattle, WA, USA
I remember as a boy flying backwards from Stansted to Singapore on a British United Airways Britannia. I too recall a sensation of motion sickness but those aircraft flew through the weather rather than over it as they do today. I also recall facing rearward on a BA trident. If I could have more legroom in economy on BA I for one would return to using them longhaul.
Philip , London, UK
While I have no opinion on the subject of the seats themselves, I am a little suspicious when the airline industry makes a decision to "give" me anything. I'm wondering when they will decide to use all that wasted space above my seat and start slinging hammocks accross aisles and from the overhead bins.
Brian W., Los Angeles, US/Ca
Interesting that some people seem to share my rather disconcerting memories of take-off, whilst others don't seem to have had any problems.
Perhaps I was unfortunate in my choice of airports (largely to and from Switzerland), or were pilots perhaps a bit more "gung-ho" in those days?
Still, obviously latter-day travellers find the experience less uncomfortable.
Brian Clapham, London,
Trains, for obvious reasons, have half their seats facing backwards, and many buses have a few backward-facing seats over the rear wheel-arch. They are invariably the last to fill - people generally prefer to face forwards. As regards comfort on aircraft, I'd like to see more premium-economy seats offering extra legroom, but with a far smaller price mark-up than BA has the nerve to charge for its World Traveller Plus.
Barry, Wallington, UK
I had an early-morning flight from Edinburgh to London on one of the BA Tridents referred to above. During the flight I dozed off (as one does), and on waking for a split second thought we were crashing as the' plane was flying backwards!! It was most unnerving.
Bill Peter, Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Would shoulder harnesses on the rear seats and lap belts on the forward seats solve the problem that Brian Mentions? I also always go for the rear facing seats on BA Club, they are great and when travelling with your wife, it means you can look at her all the time and keep whispering those little words like, "no it is perfectly OK", "that was just a little turbulence, nothing to worry about" " we'll be on the ground soon"
Phil Roberts, Kelsall, Cheshire
I always actively chose a rear-facing seat on BA long haul flights, because you are by the window. You quickly become used to the different sensation, and now it is second nature. If it potentially can offer Economy passengers more legroom, I think it should be rolled out further.
Nick, London, UK
Travelled backwards on BA in Business Class recently and it was a very pleasant experience and I felt a lot safer.
Also, no problem with the take off as suggested by Brian Clapham.
Would be more than happy to travel in the same direction in Economy as well
Roy, Dubai, UAE
some 737s used to have a row of rear facing seats. I travelled on at least one in the US and one in Brazil and it made for a better journey. At first it feels weird because we are all so used to facing forward, but once in the air there is no sensation of travelling in a particular direction so it doesnt matter which way you face. Trains have had both since their inception. The BA Club seats are great and that ying yang approach is wonderful for personal space. The sooner the better i say
jce, Sunshine Coast, Australia
I flew on RAF VC10s with rear-facing seats throughout my childhood. I don't remember the take-off problem described by Brian Clapham, but I do remember the air sickness which going "backwards" seemed to cause...
Charlie Rapple, Oxford,
Fantastic idea - if you're flying with a partner the sensation of facing each other is very social, and if you're not, then you put the screen up.
Vanessa, London, UK
I remember rearward-facing seats on BA planes in the 70's and 80's - arguably safer for sure, but they had one disadvantage - take off. On take-off you were flung forward against your seat-belt and remained more or less suspended like that until the main climb phase was completed - it was very uncomfortable, and could be rather disorienting.
Not sure I really want them back.
Brian Clapham, London,
And why not - it works OK and is accepted on most European trains? Didn't the old BA Tridents have some rear facing seats?
Tom Tracey, Vich, Switzerland
Whenever I travel long-haul I always choose a rear-facing seat - although mainly because all the window seats in BA are rear-facing (in club). I think the first time I took one it was slightly strange - but only because it felt like the plane was going backwards when it was taxiing. But after that first time I didn't have any issues with it at all and I find take-off perfectly comfortable. It means one has more space around the shoulders and less around the feet, which makes sense. The privacy screen deals with any eye-contact issues, and it can be lowered if travelling with a friend so you can actually see him.
BA really took a huge step when they became the first airline with flat beds and their new club cabin is great. Now perhaps they'll be an innovator in economy too!
Alan Stacey, London, UK
British Airways tried installing rear-facing seats in some of its aircraft in the 1970s. There were only a few of these seats, and they were up against the bulkhead. I remember flying that way on one occasion. Takeoff was rather alarming, as you had the sensation of falling forwards. Plus, as the majority of the seats faced the front of the aircraft, you had the feeling that the rest of the passengers were staring at you.
Ken, Bangkok, Thailand
The planes in question Mr. Thomas is referring were BEA Trident -passanger planes. Used to fly them from Heathrow to Helsinki and the first row of first class and tourist class were rear facing. We had first class in European flights then, and smoking was allowed at the rear of the cabins.
Lasse Koivisto, Tuusula, Finland
At first blush, the "ying-yang" seating arrangement advocated by PAIG would appear to be a bright idea. Further reflection suggests that, when "ying-yang" seats are in their reclined position, only passengers seated on the aisles will be able to get out to use the toilets - unless the seat pitch is increased by rather more than 2 inches. Similarly, the "ying-yang" arrangement is going to require increased cabin bulkhead clearance - unless the long-suffering passengers at both ends of the cabin are to be compelled to sit bolt upright throughout the flight.
Finally, any aft facing seats will incur some weight penalty in strengthening the floor structure to meet crash landing requirements. Unfortunately, It seems hard to believe that any nett advantage will remain in a practical configuration.
Malcolm Bowden, Dunwoody GA, USA
I remember back in the 70's some of the BEA shuttle flights between London and Scotland had rear facing seats - which I always tried to get because I found it more comfortable to ride like that.
Trefor Thomas, Myrtle Beach, USA
As an 8th Air Force Tail Gunner on B-17 Fortresses, I fought the war riding backwards. It isn't uncomfortable, especially if no one is shooting. Actually USAF air transports to this day put their seats facing rear. Never noticed the difference.
Phil Garey, Grants Pass, Oregon, U.S.A.
why don't you just put a picture up? it would be much easier to understand!
ed, new york, ny usa