Bronwen Maddox, The Times Foreign Editor and Michael Binyon, Leader Writer, interviewed President Pervez Musharraf of Pakistan during his two-day visit to the UK. This is the full transcript.
How long is your journey going to take?
M: Eight days in total …nine days; four continents, only Australia is left.
How are you adjusting to the time zones?
M: It doesn't effect me much actually, I can sleep in the aircraft. I utilise the time, I actually work in the aircraft. (Aide): Once travelling from Islamabad to Manchester, I saw the President writing all the time.
First of all thank you very much for talking to The Times. We are particularly interested in Pakistan. The first question I have is your visit to the US. What were the two or three substantive things you think you achieved from this visit?
M: Mainly I discussed international treaty crisis, specially focusing on balanced action. Because I think it is very much linked to the Palestinian situation. We are talking about normalising Iraq but I think the indirect strategy, I think the Palestinian dispute which I will talk about in detail. I think Bush is playing a much more stronger role in reaching a resolution and a free trade agreement with the US which would enhance our exports and create jobs.
The President is genuinely engaged with the Palestinians? Is Bush comfortable with using the word Palestine? Is Bush comfortable with a Palestinian state?
M: Yes indeed. Absolutely, comfortable for a Palestinian state to be created.
The trail of Osama bin Laden, according to the US press has gone cold? Is that true?
M: Everyone keeps asking me whether you have abandoned the trail of Osama bin Laden? There is almost a corps-sized force of 20,000 troops concentrating on chasing one person in the mountains of Afghanistan. That is not the case. We are acting against terrorism. We have smashed almost five of their bases in south of Waziristan. Now any other high value-target that gets eliminated. If Osama bin Laden is there, he will be eliminated. And if anyone thinks that we are focusing on one man, we are not doing that. We need to understand what is happening. It is very strange that people keep on asking me about just one person, we are focusing about chasing one man in the mountains.
Are you worried that there is still a terror insurgency in the mountains? And it is a real thing that you need to get sorted out now?
M: We have sorted it out. We are sorting it out to a very considerable extent. We have eliminated about 600 al-Qaeda from our cities. Other than that, in the mountains they are very well entrenched. In one of the seven agencies of Pakistan they were entrenched in 4 or 5 major valleys. We have smashed over four of these bases. Their strategic bases and their communication bases. They are on the run in very small packs in the mountains. We are very happy and glad to say that the operation has been a very great success.
Do you think the western focus on Osama bin Laden leads to a misunderstanding of the very concept and nature of terrorism?
M: Yes sometimes I feel the issue of and capability of extreme measures like weapons of mass destruction. In my mind ...I believe one should not cause alarm, because their reactions and responses creates problems for peoples.
Do you think the British Government has overdone the alarm, from the intelligence that you have had access to?
M: I think there is a balance. I think maybe you are less concerned with centres of extremism, I think the attitude here is fantastic.
Do you think that Britain should crackdown more on extremism?
M: I know that there are some educated extremists. There is a cause to investigate why they are there
One of the areas Britain is worried is the link between extremism and nuclear weapons and the possibility that extremists might get hold of those. Do you think A Q Khan ought/will be able to answer questions from by UN? Did President Bush discuss this?
M: President Bush did discuss. It shows a lack of understanding and sensitive in Pakistan.The interrogation of A.Q. Khan is a sensitive matter, intruding in our … What makes them think that they can interfere? Is it a lack of trust? Why is not anyone trusting that we have provided all the information? Are they thinking that we are hiding the information? Is there a lack of trust there? We have provided all the information. Tell us if there is any other information that you want. And there is no inhibition from our side to give any information.
There is one question that the US wishes to know - whether he [Khan] was giving weapons to Iran
M: Yes he had provided..let me talk about weapons. What is the capability..First of all you need uranium. Putting it into a bomb is not his expertise. Let that be very clear, now this is very high technology. And then having made it into a bomb, rolling it, that is very high technology and A Q Khan doesn't know anything about the trigger mechanism. And we have acquired this over 30 years, and a generation of scientists. Please understand that Khan is a metallurgist, he is not a specialist on making bombs.
Still there have been reports that you have sold weapons to Libya.
M: Yes, and it's enrichment, and also he had some diagram and formulae for making the bomb. But you must understand that it is not a do-it-yourself formula to make a bomb. I am talking with full knowledge of what happens and what goes on about anyone making a bomb. Like a suitcase bomb needs miniaturisation, this is a very high trigger mechanism. You need high expertise to make a suitcase bomb. You must understand the high complexity of the issue and not be over alarmed.
Can you assure the world that A Q Khan did not sell actual plans for weapons to Iran?
M: We are very sure that we co-operated on this very sensitive issue. We have no information that he sold designs of a bomb.
Did the President [Bush] ask in particular about the safeguards on your own nuclear weapons? Or is he worried generally that all countries that have nuclear weapons should have the utmost safeguards? Did he ask about what safeguards you had taken?
M: We didn't discuss it all (with Bush). We interact at all levels, and our intelligent organisations, we didn't discuss it all, it is not an issue. We in 1999 when I came in to form a government. In March 2000 I ensured custodial controls. We created an institutionalised method of developing our asserts and keeping them under control. We created a body called National Command Authority, this headed by the deputy chairman prime minister and the relevant ministers. They are responsible for development, control, finances and strategic assets. Under them is the strategic planning division and a very well-established and understanding secretary. They control the finances now and the security. Previously under A Q Khan the security and finances were delegated to him, he was autonomous, everything was dedicated under him. Now it is no more, it is centrally controlled by the National Command Authority division. We have created an army and navy, air force, a strategic force command. This is the best organisation, existing in the world. So therefore I understand that our assets are under great custodial control.
Kashmir: Do you think that Britain will be able to play a role as an honest broker in the next phase of discussions with Indian government?
M: We would love that, but in the Simla Accord, they [India] feel that bilateralism has been introduced. I am very hopeful that we are able to move forward in all international disputes. Previously we were extremely disappointed with this element of bilateralism because we couldn't do anything, now we are going for multilateralism. If Britain behind the scenes can facilitate and encourage both parties to move towards a resolution, Pakistan would certainly welcome this.
Will you raise that with the Prime Minister [Blair]?
M: Yes, I will discuss this with President Bush also.
How do you see you relations developing with India, and Dr Singh?
M: I met him twice, once in Agra, when they were in opposition… I find him to be a very sincere person. But when we are talking about solutions to intractable disputes like Kashmir, there is much more sincerity required. It requires flexibility of mind and much more than anything it requires courage.
Do you think he is ready to move forward on broader issues? Have you felt that the pace is as fast as you would like it? Are you worried that there has been a slowdown, a lull since the change of government?
M: No, I am satisfied. I think there has been very good progress. For the first time in history we have to consider all options in a purposeful manner. I am very hopeful, now, we will consider our options, and follow one of them.
Is President Bush interested in taking part in a role in Kashmir?
M: Yes indeed. We have been encouraging dialogue behind the scenes. Whether somebody has accepted it or not, that has been happening. The main issue is bilateral and we would like to try this bilateralism out between India and Pakistan….
Are you going to make any response to India's reduction of troops?
M: We reduced our troops some time back unilaterally. If you remove from 700,000,
30,000 or 10,000 it is a good gesture, good optics, but this is a tactical move. Our troops there is one tenth the size, one twelfth the size. If they move 20,000 I should move 1,000.
Did you ask the President about the changes in the State Department? Whether the State Department would be as focused on the issue of India and Pakistan? Via Armitage and Secretary Powell?
M: Focus, do you mean that the main focus should be on India and Pakistan?
In the sense that Mr Armitage made several trips as an emissary for the government, with the personal interest of General Powell, and now there is a new secretary of state [Condoleezza Rice]. Are you worried that she will not be as focused?
M: I think national interests and national policies remain consistent
What about Iraq, would you send more troops if the new Iraqi government asked you to?
M: I don't think that is manageable in the present circumstances. But in the passage of time, the issue of sending troops, I think to my mind has taken a new dimension now that elections will be held I think we need to focus our effort on Iraqi troops and then ultimately we can withdraw from there. I don't see much idea for asking for foreign troops.
There is an obvious need for training Iraqi troops and security troops. Is that something that you have thought about?
M: Yes that is a problem, but it should be outsourced. I mean that (they) should come to Pakistan. I am sure any other country should be willing to train soldiers…Let them handle their own security.
Given what you know about terrorism and extremists: looking at Iraq do you think its improving?
M: I wouldn't see say the position is getting better or worse…It is a very difficult situation on the political side. On the Sunni side, I think whatever we are doing, we are fighting terrorism. And trying to think about political change. I am of a conviction that the Palestinian situation is at the heart of the problem. And the solution will pull the rug under all extremist organisations. So it is an indirect strategy and I am following an indirect strategy influencing Iraq and other places
Can I ask some internal political questions? The release of Benazir Butto's husband from jail, does this mean that she would be free to lead her party? Do you think that she should do more to return her assets in her country?
M: She left the country on her own and she is not coming there on her own. There are cases against her ..and as far as her assets I would not like to comment upon it. My personal view about all leaderships in the Third World including Pakistan, about people who plunder their own countries, is that the west and European countries should strongly talk about institutionalising money laundering. Why don't we do something about it? People evade tax in developing countries and all this needs to be taken very seriously.
Head of the army: Your position - what is your reason for thinking that you must remain- head of the army?
M: First of all there is the constitutional answer. Constitutionally I have been asked to hold two offices. The parliament and the senate have been asking me to retain both offices, now I have to take a very final decision at the 31 December. We are fighting terrorism and outside and inside the region. We are trying to bring about a transformation in the region. We need to change the set up and we have taken steps to move forward. To do all this, there has to be a degree of unity, from politicians, bureaucracy and political forces and the military.
