Extracts from an interview by Michael Sheridan with Imam Samudra in the
visiting room, Nusa Kambangan Prison island, Indonesia, 26 February 2008.
It is followed by a commentary by Arabic scholar Stephen Ulph, a senior
fellow at the US Jamestown Foundation and an adviser on jihad ideology to
the US and British governments. He calls this a rare first-hand insight into
the mind of a leading practitioner of violence.
Imam Samudra is an Islamic militant convicted and sentenced to death for
organizing the Bali bombing of October 12, 2002, in which 202 people died.
The dialogue was in English with occasional Bahasa Indonesia and Arabic
phrases translated where audible. Imam Samudra refused to use the female
translator present, although she wore modest dress and headcovering.
He spoke while cradling his children and surrounded by friends. There is
considerable background noise on the recording and some sections are garbled.
Imam Samudra: Before we conduct the interview I’ll ask you first what
is the purpose of you coming to me?
Michael Sheridan: The purpose is to find out the latest situation in
your case and to report on it to the outside world through the newspaper and
the website.
IM: Alright. Use all of my words. Don’t use this as something around
the world for the Christian and Zionist army. Alright?
MS: You now have a judicial review of your case. What do you hope will
happen?
IM: Before this review and after I only care about almighty Allah.
I am at the mercy of almighty Allah. Secondly, I don’t care. I’m not happy or
unhappy. My “crime” from the first beginning of jihad is only to help
Muslims around the world. My lawyers say our case is an injustice.
MS: Do you accept that you carried out the action for which you were
charged?
IM: You mean in Bali? Actually, people called me the mastermind of the
Bali bombing. Maybe right, maybe wrong. Because my only mission is to help
the Muslims. And then what happened at Paddy’s bar and Sari Club is, out of
my words, an exception, unacceptable.
MS: Your lawyer, Mr Michdan has told us that you did not expect so many
people to be killed.
IM: Actually no. Because, before I did the action I already learning
explosives inside Afghanistan. For example when I was in Afghanistan I knew
basically of two explosives, what is TNT, what is C4 and what is potassium
nitrate. As you know, I may be an expert -- Potassium chlorate, KCl04, not
big as in Bali -- explosives not too big. Even one time not too big.
(He means the explosion was much bigger than they expected).
IM: So maybe 50% maybe you and us maybe CIA or KGB or Mossad. Maybe, it
is very possible. Everything is possible for us. Okay. You got the point?
(He means somebody else tampered with the bomb: there is no forensic evidence
of this)
MS: Do you accept that you helped to make the bomb? Did you help to
make the bomb?
IM: No No, no, (shakes head, draws back) I didn’t help to make it and
who made the bomb and when I don’t know.
MS: Around the world many people are suffering, Islamic people, but do
you accept that this act in Bali also caused suffering to people who did not
commit any violence against Muslims and who did not intend to do so?
IM: My object (target) was not Muslims my object was only anti-Muslims
especially people from USA, from Australia and member of Nato and elements
of what the people call the alliance because they know it’s a Crusader army.
Allah says our fight is with the USA and alliance.
This is my action, simply for protection (of Muslims) I found a location. Two
months before I came to Bali I did a survey and I was reading up on tourism
in Indonesia. At least one month before 12 October (2002) I observed the
Zionists (in) that thing I blew (up). I know they are using it and then also
I know I can spread this, with Australia, with Aussie, so before the action
I already know it was a discretion between Muslims and non-Muslims.
MS: Some Muslims were killed, however.
IM: I don’t know if they are Muslims. Because they are also customers.
Muslims in jilbab (Islamic clothing) in Bali? (Unclear).
(According to official figures 38 Indonesian citizens, Muslim and Hindu,
died in the blasts. No Israelis were recorded killed)
MS: What was the political effect of the Bali bomb?
IM: Politically? Well politically, before the action Indonesia was
still under the control of the USA. Our people know this. But after the
action the pressure on the USA was stronger than before. I know the USA and
Australia are already pushing SBY (President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono of
Indonesia) to execute me, to kill me and my friends. So, basically, it
drove back the USA alliance.
MS: You have said you don’t accept the secular law but would you accept
Sharia law?
IM: First of all I am Muslim. I am born as Muslim. I live as Muslim. I
reject all law except Islam. As we all know the law is not based on Muslim
Sharia. If we are tried by Sharia law of course I will go free. In Sharia
the court must choose the best scholars but in this case they only chose
this one, or this one (he means at random). It’s injustice. You can imagine
- the judge from Bali, the prosecutor, all are from Bali.
MS: Would you accept a Sharia punishment?
IM: I’d only accept Sharia law, beyond that I cannot….(trails off)
MS: What would you say to relatives of people who died in the Bali
bomb, if you were in this room now with family members who lost people -
what would you say to them?
IM: Firstly to Muslim people I would say pardon, but Muslims only. But
they must know what is my reason, what is my objective for the action? I did
this action just to help them.
MS: For the Muslims?
IM: For the Muslims, Yeah! So I say to them, Allah with them, Allah
with us. While the unbelievers – they must be entering into hell. (Recites
Arabic verse from the Koran) Allah says to all unbelievers that (this) road
will bring you to hell. And they will be the loser. Referring also to your
country, the UK, the United Kingdom, your country will lose of course,
because Allah says that only Muslims will win, Muslims will be the winners.
MS: If you kill innocent people – who could, after all, have converted
to Islam - because they are unbelievers, is it not a bad thing?
IM: I get the point. I know. The question is the objective. One month
after 11 September, 2001, Islamic converts from Christian and other
religions is greater than 500%. They convert to Islam, huh? 500%. It’s not
small. And then after Bali bombing, in Bali, at least 11 people converted to
Islam from Hindu and Christian. People ask me why I did this action. I say
because is it my creed. People converted to Islam.
MS: Some media reports say Sheikh Osama bin Laden provided money and
assistance for the bomb. Is that correct?
IM: It’s not correct. The money was not from Osama it was from other
people. This is an important point. Maybe some try to make a link between Al
Qaeda and us. Now I don’t know about this. We are not linking, The only
link is iman (faith) the only link is aqida (creed) because Osama’s God is
Allah and my God is the almighty Allah. His mission is similar to my mission
to help Muslims around the world. You get the point? Right.
MS: Have you been treated correctly in this prison?
IM: Usually the people are good. But some of them oppress us. I cannot
teach or preach in the mosque. Maybe it is an order from the president (of
Indonesia) and from Bush, get the point?
MS: But you are able to see your family at any rate. How often do you
see your family?
IM: No I do not want to talk about family. It’s my secret.
MS: Okay. I just want to know do you see them a reasonable amount of
time?
IM: I want to answer you like this. I call you to Islam. Because Islam
is peace, Islam is peace, Islam means peace and safety. One Muslim to one
Muslim is like one body. I call on all people to convert to Islam because
tomorrow belongs to Islam. In Iraq for example there is established already
an Islamic state of Iraq, it is the sign of Islam winning, God willing.
MS: Are you able to follow the news, read newspapers, see the internet?
IM: Sometimes I get newspapers from them. Internet? (Laughs)
MS: How important is the internet?
IM: The internet is now the most important method of spreading jihad
and Islam. The most important.
MS: On the issue of suicide actions and martyrdom operations. Can you
tell me anything about the –
IM: Actually the action is not a suicide bomb. No, no, no. The action
is a shaheed (martyr) bomb. Suicide is contrary to Islam. Jihad is looking
for shaheed, martyrdom, not for suicide. Suicide is forbidden. If a man
jumps off a high building it’s suicide. But this is not suicide.
MS: In English you would call it a martyrdom action?
IM: Yes a martyrdom action.
MS: Do you think all these actions are justified?
IM: The first action today is the martyrdom action. So, last month I
said to Omar al Baghdadi, the leader of the party of Iraq. I said to him and
his company I fully 100% support Islamic state in Iraq. If I am released
from here I will join them in Iraq to fight against the USA alliance or
maybe I will go to Afghanistan to support the Taliban in Waziristan or
another country.
Allah akbar, Allah akbar, assalam aleikum. Enough.
Stephen Ulph's comment on Imam Samudra's interview
The issue of killing innocents is frequently side-stepped by selective
readings by jihadi ideologues.
For instance, the Koranic verse outlawing collective punishment “And no bearer
of burdens shall bear the burden of another,” (Al-An’am: 164) they brush off
as a statement that is so general as to have no binding value.
They prefer the verses: “the recompense for an evil is an evil like thereof.”
(Ash-Shura: 40).
According to Bin Laden, “this forbidding of killing children and innocents…is
not unrestricted.” The Jihadi Sheikh Ali Al-Khudayr specifically states
there are exceptions for retaliation.
The jihadi would therefore have no difficulty matching these conditions to the
Bali bombing.
Imam Samudra’s condemnation of the unbelievers to hell stems from the jihadist
doctrine “millat al-kufr wahida” – “The people of disbelief are all one” –
whether Christians, Jews, Hindus, secularists or atheists.
So when he uses the term “Crusader” he means this not as some historical
metaphor but literally: the people of non-belief are one and their struggle
is one, a perennial, existential, fundamental Crusade against Islam.
As for the internet, it is not important as a cyber-weapon so much as a
distributor of a culture: the spreading of jihad is chiefly a re-education
of Muslims to their vision of the faith, not military action.
But as Imam Samudra and Amrozi show, the jihadists’ reading of events is one
of undiluted self-confidence not only in ultimate, but current victory.
In their conception the present world order is an aberration from reality. The
eschatology of jihadism demands that a nation built on a contradiction (such
as the United States, which they see as built on the falsehoods of man-made
laws and constitution) must of necessity collapse upon itself.
