Aylin,& others here,

What's your problem ? why so angry ? don't you like debate ? or are you just trying to convice yourself you are right & the scenario i wrote on could not happen ?
I repeat ,TURKEY has a long way to go before they can join the EU as a full member.

That is a FACT !

I think the angry , [ some unneccessarily nasty, ] comments here won't help, he & she doth protest too much !

Maggie Millington, Brittany, France

nonsense ! you can add this too...

Aylin, Istanbul, Turkiye

Interesting comments here on " bias " & "streotypes " I will add also " prejudice ",

Because a comment comes from a French address, people writing comments here have made the assumption the author is French .
Maybe that could be corrected as none here know my nationality, creed or colour, maybe in fact, I am even second generation Turkish, of parents who left ? names can be deceptive in a truly free world.

Maggie Millington, Brittany, France

Sorry to disturb you in your dreamworld Maggie, but wake up! You are not at authority Turkey needs to convince! Thanks for the good laugh though! :)

Ozlem, Istanbul, Turkey

according to my point of view,islam is a way of life.İt is the constituation from the creator of the human being to manage their way of life.islam says about the booms of the economy,about the goodness of political leadership,about the prosperity of the society,and about the mutual peaceful living of the nations.God knows what is good for his creature and chosed his constituation for this world.Turkey is a muslim country.To be economically wellbeing,developed,and prosperous in all aspects of life,does not mean to lost one,s identity.EU membership does not mean to deleate one,s long and historic existance. İ think being the same identity as the Turks,my suggestions is to choose our own self determination,but we must no be determined by others,by guiding principles to us.

ismail, istanbul , somali

Yes Aylin I can, but, I am not assured, as you obviously are.

This demostration still leaves, say around 30% of very devout Muslims , who do follow the traditional path of Islam.
If an Islamist government were allowed to return to their old ways , just see then how the figure of 30% [ approx ] would / could double. ? You know all the quiet ones , the "undecided ."
There & then you will see the problem the secularists are trying to avoid,
better they demonstrate now than wait until military intervention is needed.

Maggie Millington, Brittany, France

Secret hands try to create an islamic Turkiye. E U or Pentagon must know: We are see your shadow under the islamists in our country. And we know your strategy and tactics, we know your agent-journalists, agent-governers or novelists in our country. Our real problem is not islamist sor others. We stay on the oil and our geopolitic is most important for the masters of the universe(!) who manage the euroasia or middle east. Who want to learn Turkiye, must know this dicipline: geopolitic, geostrategy, oil wars, China, İndia and exc...

kubilayhan, Ankara, Turkey

Dear Maggie,

I hope you have read all comments made by Turks.
May be you can see now how Turkish people are and stop thinking so biassed.
Regards,
Ind.Eng.Aylin Okutan

Aylin, Istanbul, Turkey

I have worked in Turkey for almost two years now. All of my colleagues are Turkish. Not one of them stops to pray.
All of them do however have a very real and balanced view of the world and all of them speak perfect english and other languages.
This is not like France where they take great delight in refusing to speak english ! backward or what !

kerr wells, istanbul, turkey

All dark age islamist theocrat fanatic barbarians out of gouvernment, period. Three cheers for Turkish military for upholding central value of Turkish constitutional democracy and its separation of political from religious authority. I tell you, as a man of faith, that the comingling of these authorities in the manner become all-too common in near east does nothing but bastardize both religion and the state.

Francois, London, UK

To Maggie Millington: My only comment on your comment was about the "five times praying", the rest of what I said was just general thoughts, how I would like the world to be... wishful thinking! Believe me Maggie, if you were born in the eastern parts of the world - and I don't particularly mean my country - you would have a lot to feel angry about, starting with the double standards, but I believe I have the ability to read what is written, and understand it. And I see that your hours of talking to Tukish/Muslim? people somehow misled you.

ipek, Istanbul, Turkey

To Ipek, Istanbul.
Never , did I or would I undervalue a person for their colour or creed !
This is something you have got so wrong, my comments were directed at methods, not critism of peoples skin or Islam.
Anger stops you reading what is written.
Every human has a right to believe, & in any creed , the point I make is , how do u merge the East with the West ? the cultures are very different still, & as I see it will always be.
As for being ignorant about the Turks, I don't think I am, my knowledge is not from a 2 weeks sunbathing on a beach in Turkey.
It's from hours of talking with many Turkish/Muslim people, about their thoughts, lives, beliefs, methods.
Add to that the western newspapers, media, E U papers. I think this gives me a good cross section of knowledge & what is possible should the country ever become an E U member. Lastly,& for what it's worth , should you ask me if membership of the EU is good thing , my answer is an emphatic, NO,It's not worth the membership fee

Maggie Millington, Brittany, France

To Maggie,

You have got it all wrong, probably because of your steorotypes.

The 5 time praying people in Turkey are a minority, smaller in percentage than the people in French villages ignorantly professing about other countries based on a few Northern African immigrants.

Mehmet, Istanbul, Turkey

I was in the rally. It was a fantastic feeling to walk side by side with people from all ages, occupations, and cities. It was an immense crowd of people sharing similar worries, concerns, hopes, and demands. Everyone was so friendly to eachother. Younger participants took older ones to shady places to rest when the crowd and heat increased as the rally proceeded. People talked to eachother openly and freely, blaming the government of the state the country is in. It was 10 times worthed the tiring overnight bus ride. Those who try to show the Kemalist followers as a little elitist group had to accept Turkish people of all ages and backgrounds are decisive Ataturk followers, when they saw over a million people in the streets of Ankara. Turks will not let the American Greater Middle Eastern Project to establish a Moderate Islamic State in Turkey through the intermediary of the present government.

idil uzel, Istanbul, Turkey

To Maggie, I have to inform you that no one in Turkey stops work to pray, what an absolutely preposterous reason to base your rejection of Turkey’s entry into the EU. Regards the Friday prayers they last all of half an hour to 45 mins i.e. a lunch break. If people in Turkey pray it’s a very personal thing and it definitely does not impede on their work whatsoever. All of these people should actually take a visit to Turkey and see for themselves what kind of a country it is instead of relying on news reports to judge it.

You will see middle aged couples fashionably dressed drinking Raki, listening to live music and dancing to energetic music at 3am on a Friday and Saturday night in the bars in Istanbul, Ankara and other cities, as opposed to lager lout Australians and other youngsters puking up all over central London at the same time.

Adil , London/Lahore,

Firstly regards this article, of course most people in Turkey are secularist in their way of thinking, that’s why they have protested towards Erdoğan becoming President. The fact is that most Turkish people don’t want an ‘Islamic’ state they are quite happy with the way things are thank you very much!

Secondly to the replies to this article, it ceases to amaze me how at every opportunity Western hatred for anything Islamic comes out in full force when Türkiye is in the news. To the person that went there in 71, have you ever been back? How on earth can you say that it is deteriorating in to ‘savage Islamist horror’? Please get over your stereotypes.

Adil , London/Lahore,

The discussion of religion seems all engulfing. Ultimately, the wisdom of Ataturk came through in his understanding of what the citizens of modern Turkey desired. As with all people, everyone seeks to bring together their desires of peace, health, and a quality of life that delivers a harmonious family environment. The secular path has delivered long term stability.
Turkey today faces many challenges and many hurdles. How Turkey deals with these in a political environment that is unclear will define Turkey's long term future. It should be the people of Turkey that decide their fate, not the organs of state or members of the military. Neither should there be any intereference from outside Turkey. They must be allowed to follow their own destiny; it cannot be forced.
It is vital not to focus on the religion;focus on the Turkish people and their desires.
However, Turkey must accept other countries will have a view and make their voices heard.

bally, frankfurt,

I think the main problem in Turkey is that the democracy (and all the democratic rights like voting) was introduced overnight. It was not a natural result of the political, cultural and economic development like in Europe. The politicians also failed to spread the democratic values within the population. Therefore people never understood what democracy really is. The politicians also failed to introduce the much needed land reform in Turkey which would have solved the problem with the feudal lords which still own most of the land in Anatolia and decide the destiny of their subjects. I think most of the problem Turkey is facing now stemm from these two issues.
JG, from the Greek minority in Turkey

JG, Munich, Germany

to Maggie Millington, Brittany, France,

you are madam so ignorant about Turkey it is not even worth talking about it, but we have to. First of all, maybe only 10% prays regularly. How do you get your numbers?? 90%?
you think France is a totally democratic country while only certain people get elected?? have you seen a french-Arab as president?? Turkey had a half kurdish president.

Turkey gave women to right to vote long before france in 1930 and france gave women right to vote in 1945!! So please don't give us your lecture about human rights etc, you know nothing about turkey except through biased newspapers. why don't you give freedom to Corsica if you are so democratic?? remember the genocide in rwanda and how french soldiers involved? Algeria?
As for EU, please keep your EU to yourself. most of turks do not want to join to eu except the goverment anyway. Turks were here long before EU and will be here long after EU has gone.

u. acci, boston , usa

Dear Sir,

Being Turkish myself, yet being born & growing up in the centre of London, my culture, opinions & experiences are very mixed. From an outside point of view, living in the UK, and looking at Turkey, and Europe & the Middle East, i see Turkey as being on its own. Its not a Christian country, therefore its hard to get accepted into the EU, and its also not a strict Islamic country like Iraq or Iran for example, therefore Turkey is stuck in the middle having to work between both worlds, and be a good political ally and neighbour to many other countries. Because of this, and many other factors, Turks do not accept Islamic states, yet we do still hold true Islamic ideals, but not to an extremist proportion. This makes Turkey a very unique country as we can blend the traditional & the modern, and make them work side by side. If Mr Erdogan became President, the whole fabric of these ideals & way of life would be demolished, and it would put Turkey a step back in time.

neslihan pekbeken, London,

Our (Pakistani) President was educated in Turkey and speaks perfect Turkish and looks towards Atatürk with the same regard as he does our own founding father, Jinnah.

When I left Turkey I took with me ideas of secularism and democracy that I know can work in Pakistan and other Muslim populated countries also, why do I believe this, because I seen it work and function well in Turkey. Turkey is an example to the Middle Eastern and Central Asian Muslim world of how a Muslim country can be successful and democratic while retaining the pure essence of our Islamic faith. The Turkish influence throughout the Islamic world goes back many hundreds of years to this day, even many younger Turks don’t know of the influence of their country. It is for Europe to recognise this social, linguistic and cultural influence and work with it. With or without the EU, I wish Turkey and its amazing people all the success that God can possibly bestow upon them.

Adil , London/Lahore,

All the fuss goin' about has nothing to do with the danger of anti-secularism. The problem in my beautiful country is that the military/civil bureaucracy doesn't want to give its powerful position as the ruler of Turkey. But they just can't stop the downfall of its power because the people of Anatolia are getting educated and are standing against the status quo. Not much time ago, they were eating the "cake" without any piece to the people. Now my nation is trying grab its own piece and will get its piece. As it might well be guessed, bureaucracy who thinks they are the only eligible to rule the country, is burning everything in its way as it steps down. But this is their last shoot......

Baha Avcı, Ankara, Turkey

Turks have a great experience about governmental and social instutions. They have been created Turkey at last as the country which has got modern and secular instutions. If you look at history of Turks, their way of life, you may see that they have created their own way of discribing Islam which is being actually performed in a nice way in that country. They always live with christians, jewish and many other ethnics together in Anotolia so Anotolia has a great tolerans culture...As a result there is no need to fear about future in terms of elections..Turks can do that peacefully and in the best way as it is.

Irfan, London,

I think the main problem in Turkey is that the democracy (and all the democratic rights like voting) was introduced overnight. It was not a natural result of the political, cultural and economic development like in Europe. The politicians also failed to spread the democratic values within the population. Therefore people never understood what democracy really is. The politicians also failed to introduce the much needed land reform in Turkey which would have solved the problem with the feudal lords which still own most of the land in Anatolia and decide the destiny of their subjects. I think most of the problems that Turkey is facing today stemm form these two main issues which are very complex.
from the Greek minority in Turkey

JGG, Munich, Germany

The person from France has no idea, do you really think that 70 odd million people all pray 5 times a day? I have lived in Istanbul and have never seen an entire work force & schools stop & pray. There are many Muslims living & working in Europe already is their any current problem that she knows about?
The comment sounds very ignorant may I suggest that she does some a little research and finds out a little before making a comment.

Alex S. , London , UK

I have just come back from spending two months in Turkey, learning Turkish and travelling around the country. It is far far from becoming any sort of an Islamic state. Europeans should recognise the importance of this STILL GREAT nation and civilisation. It is the most important link between the West and the East, physically, emotionally, economically, ideologically, socially and most importantly politically.

When the Pakistani Prime Minister met his Israeli counterpart, (remember Pakistan doesn’t recognise Israel, as my mum’s Pakistani passport still reminds us) where was this momentous meeting held, ah yes that amazing city called Istanbul. Now the presidents of both Afghanistan and Pakistan who cannot stand each other are going to meet to resolve their differences, where, you may ask since neither wants to visit each others country, again in Turkey this time in Ankara http://www.dawn.com/2007/04/16/top10.htm an initiative started by Turkey itself.

Adil , London/Lahore,

Dear Maggie Millington,

I think instead of getting worried for Muslims praying five times a day, you should better get worried for the slumping economy of France. And do not worry, Muslims would be able to fit their prayers to the 35 work hours of France much easily, as does millions of Muslims already living in France. And I would advise you to have a better knowledge about Islam and Turkey before getting that much worried! Maybe you can start with reading Edward Said's book Orientalism and discover how much you share in common with old French orientalists!

cigdem, ankara,

I think the main problem in Turkey is that the democracy (and all the democratic rights like voting) was introduced overnight. It was not a natural result of the political, cultural and economic development like in Europe. The politicians also failed to spread the democratic values within the population. Therefore people never understood what democracy really is. The politicians also failed to introduce the much needed land reform in Turkey which would have solved the problem with the feudal lords which still own most of the land in Anatolia and decide the destiny of their subjects.

Julia, munich, Germany

Unfortunately Western people know so little about the eastern parts of the world.
To Maggie Millington: Do Christians obey all the rules in the Bible? Well, the Koran tells Muslims to pray 5 times a day, but nobody here in Turkey down tools to do that! And companies don't close for Friday prayers. Turkey is a developing country, and it sure has a long way to go, but please stop and think before you make comments on matters that you have no idea of!
Democracy should be bringing freedom of belief, but the West who is so eager to criticise the East on the very same subject matter have surely not got it's share of it! The people in the West must learn to respect people who have different beliefs and people who look different. They must learn that no matter what they believe in, what colour they are, or what part of the world they live in, human is human! They are equal, and they must be given equal rights!
An Iraqi child for example, is as innocent as an American child...

ipek, Istanbul, Turkiye

Atatörk?
He's Atatürk.

ahmet, istanbul,

Dear Sir

I am entirely sickened by so-called democracy advocation of the West. This fake jargon is built to promote new form of western colonialism over developing countries. The USA and its European satellite states should first justify themselves rather than lecturing others. We want to build democracy, we can do it without Europe's help that is for sure. One thing evrybody should understand that people of Turkey, Russia, India, Pakistan, Brazil, Venezuela arent listening your crap anymore. Mothers, whom sent their sons from far away countries, wipe your tears, your sons became our sons and their soul is resting in the land of sun and peace ( Kemal Atatürk, after Gallipoli War).

hasan, london, uk

For a Muslim country Turkey may seem quite modern, but for a democratic country it still has a long way to go.
I really don't think the Turkish, pro EU polititians have realised how many changes would be demanded & expected of them , it's not only the big things on the list , human rights etc, but all those petty things we who are in it, have complained about so frequently.
What will the commision say, when 90% of the work force down tools to pray five times a day, ? does that fit with the EU work ethic ?
If Turkey were accepted in spite of this, then imagine the work force within the present EU demanding the same right to down tools daily & have long off periods equivalent to Friday prayers.
I really can't see these problems being settled any day soon, so I am with France [ unusually ] & Germany on this one.

Maggie Millington, Brittany, France

Dear Neil from Sydney
You should know that AKP got its majority in the parliament with only 30% of the general election vote. The fact that they are a majority in the parliament is a simple result of the Turkish election system rather than as you mistakenly say "the majority of the citizens wanting to pave the way for sharia". 70% of the electorate did not vote for AKP and the fact is that the majority of the Turks want a secular state along the vision set by Ataturk

ali, london, uk

Having lived in Turkey '71-73 and having tremendous admiration for Ataturk's genius & vision, it is sad to watch a once-great nation deteriorating into just one more bizarre and savage Islamist horror. It is difficult to imagine the proud Turks I knew, most of whom understood how important their secular government was to their very survival, having voluntarily sunk this low.

One can only imagine that it came about through foreign influences on the rural population, particularly the young ones, that apparently hadn't the education to appreciate what a great gift Ataturk had given them.

G. L. White, Chancellorsville, VA

It is important to note here that the AKP party has a large majority in the parliament, i.e. that the majority of the citizens want to pave the way for islamic (sharia) law. We all know what that means don't we. What is written in the koran makes it impossible to reconcile democracy and islam. It is simply one or the other. Muslims will struggle until they achieve that and that's what the majority of their citizens want and it’s why muslims are opposed by thought or force to democracy wherever it may be. For this reason Turkey should never be part of the EU if the EU is meant to represent a collection of liberal democracies.

Neil, Sydney, Aus

Dear Sir

Atatörk should have been Atatürk.
Turkish women got the right to vote before
many European countries, including France and Germany, needless to mention Switzerland.

Turkey has elected the first female High Court judge
in the world around 50s!..

As I attended the demonstration, I can assure you the official figure who visited the tomb of Ataturk was 370,000.
Many people could not wait and left early. Independent sources put the figures as more than 1m.

This was more crowded then the Ugur Mumcu's funeral, which I also attended in 90s.

Regards

Prof. Ahmet Oral, Ankara, Turkey