Thomas Catan in Madrid
Win VIP tickets
To outsiders it may not seem particularly controversial. But yesterday Spaniards of all stripes were angrily debating a Supreme Court ruling that the Spanish flag must fly outside all public buildings — even in independent-minded regions.
The ruling revived the divisive issue of Spanish unity as those in favour of a centralised state clashed with separatists on internet forums.
“That the Supreme Court has to intervene so that the Spanish flag can fly in Spain is a clear symptom of how neurotic and divided we Spanish are,” a poster called “Atanatos” wrote in Periodista Digital, praising the court’s decision.
Others viewed it as imposition from Madrid. “We live in a democracy and I think it’s unfair to make us fly a flag that we Basques have no good feelings toward,” wrote “Rizzo” on the website of La Vanguardia. “If that flag is placed in my town hall, I’ll be the first to go to a protest march or Spanish flag-burning.”
Foreign visitors are often bewildered at the sheer number and variety of flags on display in Spain. The national flag — red and yellow with the Spanish coat of arms — was adopted only in 1981, when the country returned to democracy after four decades of dictatorship.
However, it must fly alongside the ensigns of the country’s seventeen autonomous regions and two autonomous cities. Some of those still associate the Spanish flag with the repression of the Franco dictatorship, which sought to extinguish the country’s regional identities in favour of a centralised state.
In the most restive regions — Catalonia and the Basque Country — the Spanish flag is often supplanted altogether, bombarded with paint or torn down by supporters of independence.
At public rallies in Spain, still other flags are on display. Right-wing marchers sometimes carry the Spanish flag in use during Franco’s rule, which bears a fascist-style eagle with a sun behind its head.
Leftist marchers will often bear the red, purple and gold standard in use during the Second Republic and scrapped by Franco after his 1936 military coup that sparked the Spanish Civil War.
The Republican flag has become popular with the labour unions and in women’s rights and gay pride marches.
The latest ruling came in response to an appeal by the Basque regional government, which had been ordered by a lower court to fly the Spanish flag outside the academy of its regional police force, the Ertzaintza.
The Basque government argued that it had not flown the Spanish flag outside its police headquarters in more than 20 years. The Supreme Court dismissed the argument, saying that that did not exempt it from doing so.
Lest independent-minded regional governments try to get around the ruling by hanging the Spanish flag in a disused back room or dark cupboard, the Supreme Court specified that it must be hung “permanently” in “a preferential place, inside or outside the building”.
The Basque government said yesterday that it would simply obey the law, without elaborating. But many believed that the Spanish flag will be attacked mercilessly by proindependence protesters if it complied.
There are often violent incidents during the annual fiestas of the Basque city of Bilbao, when the Spanish, Basque and European flags must all be raised above the town hall. Ironically, it is the Ertzaintza riot police that are charged with protecting the Spanish flag during those disturbances, much to the fury of proindependence protesters.
The Mayor of the Catalan town of Matadepera, Jordi Comas, was charged this year with insulting the Spanish flag after refusing to hang it in his town hall.
Win a luxury weekend to Newcastle and its neighbour Gateshead, find out more here
Risk, resilience and embracing new technology
Industry sectors news at a glance. Interactive heatmap, video and podcast
Discover the power of collective thinking. Submit a solution and be in with a chance to win a Media Hub Home Entertainment System
The inside track on current trends in the charity, not for profit and social enterprise sectors
Everything the Business Traveller needs to know to make a better trip
Make the most of the summer and enter our fabulous photographic competition, you could win a £5000 holiday
Corsica is an island of beauty and contrast, an ideal holiday destination
Enjoy further reading from Travel to Fashion, Business to Sport, discover more
Shortcuts to help you find sections and articles
The clever way to lease a new car is with Car leasing made simple™
2009
per month on 36-month
Personal Contract Hire (PCH)
2008
42850
Car Insurance
£23,093 - £56,211
The Office for National Statistics
Newport, South Wales
£60,000
The Environment Agency
Bristol
Up to £90K
Boots
Midlands
OTE £85k
Credit Protection Association
Nationwide Opportunities
Completely London
Luxury Condo's in Manhattan with NYC views
The best new homes in Wimbledon?
Nationwide
Fabulous Cruise And Cruise & Stay Offers Including Virgin Atlantic Flights Prices Start From Only £699pp!
Last Minute Cruise And Cruise & Stay Offers. Med From £499pp, Caribbean From £699pp!
5 star quality at a 3 star price.
8 fabulous Canadian cities ...you won’t find cheaper
Contact our advertising team for advertising and sponsorship in Times Online, The Times and The Sunday Times, or place your advertisement.
Times Online Services: Dating | Jobs | Property Search | Used Cars | Holidays | Births, Marriages, Deaths | Subscriptions | E-paper
News International associated websites: Globrix Property Search | Property Finder | Milkround
Copyright 2009 Times Newspapers Ltd.
This service is provided on Times Newspapers' standard Terms and Conditions. Please read our Privacy Policy.To inquire about a licence to reproduce material from Times Online, The Times or The Sunday Times, click here.This website is published by a member of the News International Group. News International Limited, 1 Virginia St, London E98 1XY, is the holding company for the News International group and is registered in England No 81701. VAT number GB 243 8054 69.
The imposition of the flag is another manifestation of right wing fascism on the separatist regions. Yugoslavia did not survive the death of Tito, doubt if Spain survives the death of Juan Carlos.
Som i serems.
Juan Vicens, Savannah, Georgia, USA
I am reding all this opinions, are only opinions, and I'm a quiet afraid about some of the expressions or ideas. Please, visit Catalonia an d you will see the reality of our country and culture. We are an oppresed nation for 300years, the Castilian Imperial Governament invided us and take off all our liberties as a country. Right know, in my country, speaks catalan and spanish too and no body are of second clas citizens, and also no all de independentist people are violent, please! Spaniards, open your mind to other cultures, Catalonia have the second oldest Parlament in Europe and more of 1000 years of history in common like a country, this is Catalonia. We are a open minded people, workers and prouds of our history and some people have not this tradition becouse Spain, d'ont exist... Spain if never was a country, will be becouse some of the regions and country in the peninsula gets together with a common project not by the force as by the word and peace.
Ángel Llorent, Barcelona, Catalonia
people against the flag are nazionalist who support terrorism.1000 victims in Spain 300 of them childrem
javier oter, Las palmas, Spain
Be sure that Spain is a democracy. Nationalist regions (Basque Country, Catalonia, Galizia, and many other smaller) have all their rights. They have their own police, health system, educational system (they study their own history in their own language). They study and work without any problem in Spain outside their regions. But Nationalism is not majority in their regions, they are close to 50%. The problem appears when some nationalist fanatics explode bombs, burn houses, kill no-nationalists, kidnappe no-nationalist politicians, claim for regions outside their borders (in France and part of Castilla), etc. Spain has been a country for 5 centuries. Aragon (Catalonia is part of the ancient Aragon kingdom) prince Fernando and Castilla prince Isabel got married in 1468. Both kingdoms have been together since then. Navarra joint Castilla and Aragon thanks to an agreement in 1512. Now, 5 centuries after, some people have decided that everything is false and there is not freedom ¿?
Daniel, Madrid, Spain
To Miguel.
Barcelona was the political and economic capital of Aragon Kingdom. What you know today as Aragon was simply a big desertic land with few goats and shepherds. So don't tell us lies, please. Thank you.
Pau, Barcelona, Catalonia,
The actual spanish flag (Rojigualda) was accepted by the 1978 constitution. Note that it was not made a simple referendum to ask if the spanish people wants a monarchy state model (simple, cause it was imposed by Franco) and this flag it's identical to the dictador's flag. For those people who lives in Catalonian o Basque Country, this flag is not our flag and never it'll be. I belongs to Catalonian and, personally, the last and legal spanish flag is the "tricolor" or republican. I'm proud to show it always the 14th April, or the catalonian flag the 11th September, but never and NEVER wear the actual spanish flag, symbol of the dictatorial, central and retrograd monarchy...
Xavier, Barcelona, Catalonia
As a Galician, and as so many other Galicians, I only feel Galician, not spanish. The people who say that Spain is a nice country and the people must be proud of being an spaniard, these people should live here in the Spanish State like a Galician or a basque and feeling as a second citizen. Soberanist people dont have any rights in Spain, we are prosecuted by the spanish police. Demostrations in favour of independence always end in charge by the "democratic" spanish police. International Amnesty alerts of the tortures on political prisoners (nationalists) made by the Spanish State. Spain censures the freedom of the Iberian nations, such as Galiza, Catalonia or Basque Country. Freedom for Galiza, Galiza Ceive!
Brais Maceiras, A Corunha, Galiza
Pere Canvos said
"The Spain that we know today is the consequence of the Castilian war against the non-Castilian kingdoms (among them Catalonia and the Basque Country). Catalonia is ruled by Madrid since the Catalans lost the 1714 war against the French and the Castilans. Since then, Catalonia stopped being a sovereign nation to become a Spanish region with no rights...."
As far as I know Catalonia & Basque region never existed as a kingdom or sovereing nation. In case of Catalonia it was Barcelona county belonging to Aragon kingdom as many others couties did, and all Catalonia inhabitants have the same rights as any European people since we all belong to EU.
Most Spanish people love the flag and are proud of regional identity because our young democracy was crated to provide same rights to citizens nevertheless the region you live, I mean free medical attention, free schools etc. and a lot of social benefits, independence minded are destroying it.
Miguel, Fromista, Spain
Spain adopted the flag in its current form on Dec. 19, 1981.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Spain
rk, Madrid, Spain
The lightest look at the current flag or language situation in Catalonia will leave you with quite an exact mirror of what Franco did to the Catalan speaking citizens of his times. Franco is certainly dead in the Spain of today. However, some of the policies of the Galizian old stock dictator thrive in Catalonia and in Basque lands under a different skin. Today the oppressed citizens happen to be Spanish speakers -most of them Catalonia-born but de facto second-class citizens when it comes to their access to jobs or education in their mother tongue, which happens to be one of the official languages. However, in this environment the local authorities' approach is far from being a literary affair but perfectly aligned with the rest of their language-based apartheid policies. These local administrations are used to have unreported their eager harassment of almost half of its citizens in every sector under its vast political and economic autonomous power.
js antonio, Barcelona, Spain
Mr. Thomas Catan is wrong when saying that the modern Spanish flag is official only since 1981. Please, read some History before writting about our old country: Although the Red and Gold colors were used by Castilian Kings Alfonso XI, Enrique IV and others during XVI century, the modern Red and Gold banner was made official flag of the Royal Navy and Armed Forces of Spain by royal appointment of King Carlos III ON 28TH MAY 1785. Therefore our old Red and Gold flag is older than the French tricouleur (official in 1794 with the Revolution) and your Union Jack, which is of official use since 1801 only. And, Mr Catan, please, do not take our old nation as some kind of western Yugoslavia. Maybe there are separatists in Spain as there are separatists in France, Italy, Belgium and of course the U.K., but they are just a (often violent) minority. Do not make the mistake of take these marginal groups as a political force with real strenght in the Cortes because they are not.
Fernando, Murcia, Spain
We live in a democracy.... so such and such shouldn't happen. Democracy does not mean libertarianism. It just means majority rule. It comes in different forms like republican democracy being the one people think about most, but the way people throw around this term is as if the only good system of government can be democracy and only is democracy. Hitler got elected. Napoleon and many other of the worst government leaders and atrocities have been done under democracies. People make excuses like those weren't democracies because they turned into something else. Please, all of you democracy lovers find something else to love.
Gaurav Ahuja, Long Island,
I hope there's at least a tacit understanding among the various Spanish factions that they can jealously protect their respective fiefdoms at the expensive of national unity as long as they're ready to band together to counter the creeping Muslim menace. Otherwise a 'house divided cannot stand.'
smc, Annapolis, MD/USA
Here in the Republic we keep having trouble making people realize that the Lone Star Banner is to fly at an equal height as that of the banner of the federal government of the United States (something about letting too many Yankees sneak across the border) so I can sympathize with those folks in Spain who don't want to fly the flag of the central government. The longer and harder you force people to stay together who don't want to, the more likely there will be war. Just look to U.S. history.
Peter, Republic of Texas,
There is a very popular prejudice in favor of the "nation-state" in our time. Lincoln is lionized for "uniting" the states of North America under a common, coercive government, and his success in creating one of the first great nation states. Naturally, this had certain advantages for politicians and businessmen who wanted a powerful state. Bismark, Franco, Hitler, and Stalin all followed Lincoln in the pursuit of creating nation states, and the process always required squashing regional identities and independence movements. The great question to consider is the advantages of allowing regions to foster their own identities and even to govern themselves. What is wrong with an independant Catalonia? Few will deny the right of Ukraine to govern itself, though it was long governed by Russia. Consider Switzerland and Denmark. Though small, they have their own identities, and have resisted the empires that attempted to conquer them. They are both admirable and prosperous.
Dallas Shipp, Lynchburg, VA
Andrew Capp wrote:
"Each of those national governments are inventions of the "Age of Enlightenment". The sooner we discard with those heresies associated with that abominable age, the better off the world will be."
I believe you've lost your senses. 1775 and 1787 were both years notable in the US for their sentinel events being the result of the Enlightenment. It is the later romanticist, "Endarkenment" thinkers, Rosseau, et al, who are best forgotten.
Tom Perkins, Boyce, Virginia
"Since Spain is facing serious economic problems," says Brian from Texas.
Nothing could be further from the truth. Spain has an excellent economy.
The Spanish Flag was accepted during a transition between fascist dictatorship and infant democracy. To many Basques and Catalans it is an insulting reminder if unhappier times. The Spanish state is simply NOT a united country and even less a single nation. To impose this flag is a symptom political naivety.
Donal, Madrid, Spain
As to long term whether this edict will create greater nationalism or less only time will tell. But from first appearances it will only create greater animosity among those who are locally minded. You can't force someone to love Madrid, London or DC. But then you shouldn't want to. As to local government offices, just whose taxes pay for them any way? If all the support is derived from that locality then should it not be those people who bear the burden who make the decision. Even if the national government does subsidise the local government, it can do so only by taxing localities.
The real issue is whether nationalism is truly viable any longer. With greater regional and global economic integration, Keynesianism to operate must be on a regional or global scale. Planning at a national level can't occur with regional and global economies. If the national government unable to achieve its objectives through economic planning it will be tempted to resort to social planning.
Harold Crews, Walkertown, North Carolina
The Spain that we know today is the consequence of the Castilian war against the non-Castilian kingdoms (among them Catalonia and the Basque Country). Catalonia is ruled by Madrid since the Catalans lost the 1714 war against the French and the Castilans. Since then, Catalonia stopped being a sovereign nation to become a Spanish region with no rights. It is trying to rise again, in democracy, in peace, to become a normal country again. Spain now is forcing our representatives to fly the Spanish flag in Catalonia public buildings, however, the Spanish Police and the Spanish army in Catalonia have never flown the Catalan flag. As usual the rule only works in one direction, from Madrid and for Spain, forgetting once more, the rights of the Catalans. Spain should learn more about the United Kingdom instead of forcing us to follow their unfair nationalists rules.
Pere Canvos, Sant Pol de Mar, Catalonia
I have recently finished reading Anthony Beevor's excellent book recounting the awful tragedy of the Civil War in Spain during the 1930s. The multiplicity of parties, dynasties, creeds, foreign meddlers, and jurisdictions were bewildering. In the final analysis, the discipline and dedication found in the Communists, the Catholic Church, the Falangists, and the Separatists of Catalonia and The Basques drove the war to its awful imposition of misery and imposed a decades long stasis on Spain that the Reign of His Majesty ended. Here in North-Central Georgia, USA, we have some memory of our own War For Southern Independence, fought with magnificent gallantry and awful brutality. But defeat cannot be undone. The Spanish People will accept the unity of Spain, or the carnage will be repeated, and Spain's acquaintance with high tragedy will be renewed. The centralizing authorities in Spain would be well advised to recognize that an embrace too constricting engenders not love, but sulleness.
Claude Bogardus, Cartersville, GA, USA
Contrary to popular mythology, there is no such thing as a natural national government of Spain; nor of the United Kingdom, nor of Germany, nor of Italy, nor of France, nor of even The Netherlands and Belgium and most other European countries. Each of those national governments are inventions of the "Age of Enlightenment". The sooner we discard with those heresies associated with that abominable age, the better off the world will be.
Andrew Capp, Atlanta, American Georgia
Since Spain is facing serious economic problems, and is once again being overtaken by the Islamists (as is much of Europe), is this a patriotic effort from the courts verse an effort at centralized imposition from Madrid? I'm not sure.. I am not an expert on Spain, but my big fear is that Spain's economy will soon collapse and the Islamists will turn up their intifada and the nation will collapse in war in a manner similar to Lebanon (though the numbers of Muslims are smaller in Spain, it seems the politicans have no backbone to do anything.. or do they?).
Brian, Houston, Texas - United States
Careful, or Spain will wind up like Canada, where Ottawa attempts to stifle and suffocate the provinces and regions with the gawdawful Maple Leaf. In many instances, Ottawa resorts to PAYING Canadians to take the silly red and white flag. Only in Quebec and Alberta (and sometimes in proud Newfoundland) is the federal Canadian flag forcefully refuted.
JC, Calgary , Alberta
It is so difficult to me to see these separatist feelings in the Spanish people. It breaks my heart. They can't remember that was thanks to the union of Castilla y Leon that Spain got the strength to expel the moors. I have Spanish blood running in my veins and I'm so proud of it and it hurt's my feelings deeply that some Spaniards are not as proud as me. No! Spain is one country only, under Christ and in Europe!
Fabio C, London, UK
Everybody knows that even in a democratic country you must live under some rules.The Spanish flag was accepted by the 1978 constitution as the simbol of the new country and it brought about a peacefull transition. So,i think that our flag have to be displayed in every public building till spaniards decided the contrary.
Jesús GarcÃa, Córdoba, Spain