High time to spend time with your kids instead of communicating by mobile and letting them babysit themselves through an internet after schools aged 7.

Too many kids are lonely, isolated and are way too insecure to handle today's ups and downs. Parents, wake the hell up before it happens again.

Susanna, London, UK

This article is so condescending... it's basically just saying "I told you so". Couldn't you show a little more respect?

So someone said that the previous article was "well written in terms of style and form, but utter rubbish in terms of content". This one doesn't even have that.

Oliver, Hyvinkää, Finland

I bet Roger Boyes is now better known than Lewis Hamilton or the queen by the Finns. Perhaps he should teach some English pronunciation to our P.M.

Martsa, Helsinki, Finland

really waiting for yours comments today's happenings in Kauhajoki. Have you visit there, Roger Boyes ?

Lulu, ...., Finland

Dear Boyes, really... Don't you think you're trying to capitalize on the other's emotions?
'Coz I think you do.
I am not a Finn, actually I am a "potential agressor" from Russia, who's enjoying living and working in Finland for many years. Torouble free. Being in UK I've been assaulted in the streets within 6 days.

56% ya say? Cool, I can add, firearm silencers are legal here, and so on.

2 words. 1) personal 2)responsibility.
Analyze that, Mr.

P.S. In Russia we DO have some polar bears, but we DON'T use them as pets neither teach them how to drink vodka or play balalaika.
So, welcome back from the outer space =/

Victor, Helsinki, Finland

Boyes, you're a freaking idiot.
There's no way to eliminate mental illness or murderous hearts. You seem to think the world would be paradise if it would only follow your vision for how to live. There have always been murderers. Always will be murderers.
Trying to be alert to troubled individuals can help to some degree; so can being prepared to defend yourself.
But there will always be murderers among us.
And idiots.

Sam Mosin, Gadsden, Alabama USA

And as soon as we learn to play football, I'm sure we'll have some hooligans, too.

Tony, Käläviä,

Dear Mr. Boyes,
There are no polar bears in Finland. Has never been.

Maria, Vantaa, Finland

Dear Roger. I was disgusted with your article as you made a very close friend of mine extremely upset. Your discription of Finns is totally inappropriate and utterly incorrect. No one on this planet has the right to judge a group of people due to the actions of one individual. I don't hear people blaming the British public because of the descision made by our ex - Prime Minister to go to war and destroy the lives of several people in another country. That's because you can't destroy the entire apple cart if only one apple is rotten.

I am British and I have associated with several Finns. I have come to realise that they are a peace loving and righteous people by nature.

There are far too many negatives in the world. You ought to spend more time with Finns and you will come to realise that your article contains no substance of Finnish reality at all. I guess you make a good fictional writer instead.

Oh and by the way enjoy the use of your Nokia mobile phone.

Conrad, London UK,

Finns, Finns, Finns? Why don't you ask "Americans, or Germans or the British? You even make fun of our beautiful lakes! For us our lakes are the most beautiful in the world, our pride. How can you scribble these "reports" about our country without any real information of what living in presentday Finland is really like.

Perhaps it was too easy for you to write whatever rubbish of us, because you knew most of your readers knew equally little of this country. Then you ask why we are angry!

I'll joke a little and write a report on your country on the basis of the tv series "Heartbeat" describing life in Britain 50 years ago. We learn that as early as that you already had a growing drug problem. And what spooky brick houses, wild moors... I have also read some English classics, Shakespeare etc in English. So, this must be valid information for me to write a report on something happening in presentday Britain? You all must be the same, framed with those spooky uninhabited moors...

Anne, Espoo, Finland

I have read both articles now from Roger Boyes. I am unsure what his experience of Finland and Finnish society is - I have been a very frequent visitor to many parts of Finland since the 1990s and have to say that family life is strong and thriving, and children and teenagers seem to have many more opportunities than in the UK. I have friends who have children and god children and I am so impressed with how they are nurtured and supported through life. If only Britain could be more like this!

Living in a more northerly part of Europe is always difficult, and this applicable to many countries not just Finland.

Roger Boyes needs to get out more I suspect; or perhaps just get a life!

Gordon, Uxbridge, UK

I have only just been alerted to this debate. I live some of my time in Finland and have done so for several years and frankly what you have written Mr Boyes is total and utter rubbish. Of course the Times is little better than a tabloid these days and I guess that many Finns have not caught up with that fact yet so they expect something you are not able to provide, reasoned debate and when you screw up as badly as you have done, an apology.

I hope you noticed the characteristic politeness of the replies, in spite of the provocation, written in English so that you did not have to get a translator.

But of course the delay means that I have the benefit of having read the Guardian headline yesterday "Another day, another Disaster". Why dont you try applying what passes for a brain to solving some of the problems in the UK or is it you and your ilk that is making the country the laughing stock it now is? Dont bother to answer that I know the answer.

Keith Baverstock, Helsinki, Finland

I find it rather surprising that Roger Boyes is taking so long to post his analysis of the thwarted school massace in Cologne.

Afterall, there are similarities to other massacres - but this was a very German affair...

Jonathan Chiddick,

Jonathan Chiddick, Helsinki, Finland

"Sorry" seems to be the hardest word...

Timo, sotkamo, finland

Both Your original "analysis" on the events in Jokela and this response of Yours show an incredible simple-mindedness and ignorance and shows no critical thinking or real analysis. This response of yours doesn't really answer to any of the critique stated against your "analysis", instead you cleverly go around all the criticism by calling for debate and discussion. Discussion is crucial and problems should be talked about, but You don't address the issues people were criticizing about.

No one says Finland is a paradise on Earth, but the simplicity of Your logic just amazes me! Sure, there are problems in Finland just as there are problems in every country, but putting a "this is typical Finnish behaviour" stamp on this whole issue as such is not only insulting to Finns but makes me seriously wonder which century You live in..

I really used to think The Times as a quality publication, but this has definitely made me suspicious about that.

Katariina, Helsinki, Finland

Another winging POM as we say in Australia. Why is it that if their is something to complain about and then pretending to be an all mighty expert on everything it comes from a POM. If Finland is so complex-why make ignorant comments about the country and the people in general and do you really believe that an unemployed person without money and parent(s) would be better off in another country? Name It. if you can. Mr Boyce, Aussies like nothing better than a bit of pommy bashing every now and then. Cheers

Marty, Brisbane, Australia

Dear Roger Boyes:
I'm very glad of your writing. There's somethin extremely rotten in this country (Finland). Ridiculous how "good" people are now so shocked; they have let it go happen all these years. Finland is emotionally a very cold country - it seems like people don't (want to) see each other. No body speaks (especially with strangers). This is a historic trauma, any speculative mystification aside; Finland was occupied by Russia more than hundred years and after it got "indepence" came an faschistic era. This is going on. One of the worst traumata of finns is the civil war (1918) when tens of thousands of losing part (and completely innocent, but poor, or of russian minority) was killed. That's why, I believe, finns are still afraid of authorities.

Johnny Mangaard, Karis, Finland

Dear Sir,
I have been fortunate enough to have lived in Tuusula for nearly 20 years. It is a community I am very much fond of, and still visit quite often.
I have the handicap of being half American, which seems to make me less than adequate to comment on any topic in both the Finnish and English context. However, the terrible event at Jokela has caused 'us Finns' to deeply, and publicly analyse ourselves, the way we bring up our children as well as the way our society works.
That analysis will continue for a long time.
Perhaps a debate on related issues is needed, perhaps it is more important to find constructive ways to heal the wounds.
We have our problems, we know that. Perhaps we need the Times to help us, perhaps not.

(I never went to a dentist in the UK, one only has to glance at the nearest set of British teeth.)

Tom, Espoo, Finland

Mr Boyez.

You really have to be a simple mind to propose that what happened is a finnish way.
This can happen anywhere. All it needs really is only one individual that disagrees with the rest.

Jouni, Jarvenpaa, Finland

I am not a child of divorced parents myself and have not even gotten married yet, so haven't had the experience of divorce either. I am thus not speaking to defend myself and also need to admit I don't have personal experience in the area - BUT I do find very questionable the uncritical assumption expressed by Mr. Boyes that life is miserable for a child of divorced parents and that a high divorce rate is automatically a negative thing. My knowledge of research in psychology and sociology as well as my observations suggest that such an assumption is silly and simplistic - there are plenty of people whose parents are divorced who are not at all miserable and fare perfectly well in life. This comment thus attacks the same characteristics of Mr. Boyes's thinking and writing that several people criticized before - presenting uncritical and simplistic arguments with no basis but personal assumptions and prejudice. Neither good thinking nor reasoning and hardly constructive.

Teija, Helsinki, Finland

A few people are commenting that Finns cannot bear to be criticized. I certainly disagree and think the girl commenting on the difference between journalisitc cultures is closer to the point. What seems to have frustrated most people is the utter lack of correct facts or logical reasoning in Mr. Boyes's writings. The statistics are wrong and the reasoning silly. Thus, Mr. Boyes's writing has nothing to do with "debate" which he pretends to call for. Debating something, especially as serious as this, requires use of correct facts and statistics, logical reasoning and critical thinking as well as actual knowledge of the subject matter. All these have been utterly lacking in both of Mr. Boyes's pieces of writing.

Vilhelmiina, New York, USA

I have been living in Oulu for 10 years and I have visited Tuusula. Nothing about this shooting is typical finnish! My opinion is that finnish people always turn inwards everything. Their thoughts, their opinions, their anger and frustration and their depression. That is why they commit suicide rather than shoot others. In which of your categories would you then assign the shooter? As I understand, his parents are not divorced, he was still at school therefore not unemployed and he had enough money to buy a gun. He does not look like a polar bear eitther.
You should not make comments about the children of divorced parents. Most of them turn OK (I for one).

Anna, Oulu,

I grew up in Finland for 13yrs after which I moved to London in -86. I've gone to school/lived/worked in the UK, Germany, Canada and Singapore. Finland is not the best place in the world, but neither is the UK. Societies & family units are changing everywhere. UK has highest teenage pregnancy rate and teenage mothers see pregnancy as career move. Boots now gives out free chlamydia tests to under 25s to tackle explosion of STDs. More than 50% of school leavers fail GCSE English & Math in UK.

Look up Billy Cox, Michael Dosunmu, James Andre Smartt-Ford, killed by guns. How about Timy Babamuboni? In 12 months to June 2005 there were 10,979 gun crimes in England and Wales. Over Easter school holidays this year, Trident (black on black crime) launched an ad campaign to stop youth gun crime.

Tuusula isn't worst spot for kids to grow up. Can you even compare it to Peckham, Crawley, Milton Keys,Pollok (Glasgow)? Where did you grow up?

http://www.gun-control-network.org/INS1007.htm

Paka , London, UK

Having left the 'charming' schools of inner city Manchster to teach in Finland I feel I have to comment on this reporter's view of the country I now call my home.

I have never felt safer than I have whilst living and working in Finland. I am more worried about slipping in the -30C temperatures of January and February than I am about violent crime.

I live in one of the larger cities but I have visited and I do have many friends from some of the more isolated areas of the country.

None of them has yet felt the need to attack school mates and teachers with a weapon and, yes, many are sadly between divorced parents and in their 'small dormitory suburbs', as they were so eloquently described, without much financial freedom.

While I agree no country can be entirely without it's flaws, Finland is one of the better ones I have been to. With family connections in the States, Canada, the UK and South Africa, I know where I would rather live, work and raise my children.

Jo, Oulu, Finland

Thanks for responding to the feedback! Very brave and highly appreciated!

Of course whenever something goes wrong it's time to analyse what happened and why the disaster struck. This is what it means when they say that aviation safety regulations are written in blood.

To err is human, to err the same way again is plain stupid. And since life is too short to make all mistakes on our own, we better learn from the mistakes of the others.

But you still seem to miss the point which probably triggered many of the comments, mine for sure.

It's not whether Finns are more suicidal or depressed than someone else. There's no denying of the facts.

But assuming the reason to be what many of us consider one of the nicer seasons we look forward to is jumping to a rather hasty conclusion.

Yes, some actually DO like the winter and they DO go out there to enjoy it with their families.

I am not asking anyone to like snow and northern lights on the sky. But please let me enjoy them with my family.

Hannu Hietalahti, Kiviniemi, Finland

My English is not good and perhaps I do not understand what you are saying. It must be so.
You are visiting Tuusula and now all the Finns should come there to see how gloomy place it is, enabling this horrible crime to happen. All people should leave Tuusula? Your message is not very merciful towards Tuusula citizens who are already having hard times.
On the other hand I do not understand your reasoning about the contributing factors: a) his parents were not divorced or b) unemployed (Tuusula has very low unemployment) c) I have not read that he was lacking of cash, he had worked during the summer and at least had money to buy a relatively expensive gun.d) very funny (all of us are laughing). If these factors are given as contributing factors regarding the case I think they should have been personally affected his life. Or was he just sympathetic if some other members in the society had to live under these circumstances and started to shoot his school mates?

Kossu, Espoo, Finland

Dear mr Boyes, I live in a town right next to Tuusula and happen to have friends from there too, so yes I've been to Tuusula and I thnk I know pretty well what it's like to be a teenager here. Of course we got violence n crimes here but then again can someone name a country where that doesn't happen? Have you actually ever met a Finn? Apart from your dentist of course... If you had, you'd know that even though most Finns are a lil shy at first, that doesn't mean we are depressed or wanting to go and shoot people. But I'm glad you use our tax money on your wisdom tooth.
I gota go now, my polar bear's hungry.

Kaisa, Kerava, Finland

Is it really so that the Finnish mythology and gods are very different from, say, the Greek ones? Haven't digged either too deeply, but please let me know if you have.

Sini, Madrid, Spain

"-- and 56 per cent gun ownership."

I did not read all the comments so dunno if any1 already commented, but I would like to correct this.

We have aprox. 1,6 million legal weapons registered
and only 650 000 legal owners for them. Out of 5m+ Finns that makes 12 per cent or so. And like 75% or so are for hunting purposes and most of the rest are owned by collectors as a relics. Handguns are very uncommon and only used in sports and in security purposes.

Santas lil helper, Rovaniemi, Finland

Hate to break it to my fellow Finns, but this is not a "happy flower land" like some of you put it. There's a lot of violent crime here! Wasn't it just the other day, 3 men kicking some knocked out man in the head? What's even more disturbing is that there were a lot of bystanders, but no one did anything to stop them. Sign of a healthy community? Come on, there's violence in the scoops about daily. Remember the man who knocked out another in a club resulting in serious brain injury? Wasn't that long ago was it? What about the guy who killed his sister? Please, I see fights in the streets and clubs of Helsinki about every weekend. It's really more of a rule..

That being said, I still reckon it's a good country to live at. Far better than most others.

Heikki, Helsinki, Finland

"Paradise on Earth, you say, but I wager not if you are a) the offspring of divorced parents; b) unemployed; c) a teenager stuck in a small dormitory suburb without much cash; or d) a polar bear. Apart from d) those categories apply to Tuusula."

My dear Mr. Boyes,

None of those categories apply to Tuusula. Tuusula cannot be unemployed or living in a small dorm; it's a county, not a person. What were you trying to say again?

Tuuli, Gothenburg, Sweden

You wrote that we Finns have 56 per cent gun ownership, which has been quoted widely. However, this is not true. Out of the Finns, only a small fraction own guns. The truth is that to every 100 Finns there are 56 guns. This does not mean 56% of Finns own a gun. Rather, this piece of statistics is completely useless.

Marc, Espoo, Finland

Sir, the happiness indicator you are quoting probably tells more about economic happiness in terms of monetary wealth rather than about the amount of mental health suffering in the country, or other societal problems that affect the weakest. It really distracts me that Finland is repeatedly told to be one of the happiest countries in the world. That does not really say anything, kinda like saying that everyone will be millionaire in the US. In reality, Finland is not a happy place unless your life is supported by all the characteristics of a happy life, such as good education and a career, strong social networks, healthy marital relationship, and life in a city for one. And these characteristics are universal. The picture that Finns like to show for the outer world is that "we have a society that supports your happy life with the least personal effort".

Ilkka, Espoo,

Perhaps the Finns understand that you can not legislate for the nutter.

The draconian banning of handguns in this country after Dunblane, was all about political theatre, and cheap headlines which has not reduced the cost of illegal handguns in the UK.

Suusi M-B, Harpenden, UK

Mr Boyes writes above: “Shouldn’t you ask why and not just leave the questioning to visiting foreigners?” Mr Boyes, newspapers and all, and I mean all, internet forums and blogs are full of debates and discussions on the Jokela tragedy. I am surprised to find that you are not aware of them, even if you cannot read them.

Anna-Liisa, Helsinki, Finland

Dear Mr Boyes,

We love winter just as much we love the summer time!!!!!! When winter is gone and comes the spring and the summer ... it' s just awesome, u can't get depressed. OR IF, you' re a weak and mentally ill person... u are right "a mass murder deserves debate" but it' s your problem too!!! Don't despise it that it's our or the US problem...


This is video from YOUTUBE (suprise suprise) !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zle3Fj6iMuY

Matt, Finlad as Minnesota,

In a debate of Finnish newspaper Ilta-Sanomat, there were many who agreed with Mr Boyes. It seems to be that those Finns who are able to write in English are happier and free of any problems. However, the massacre was anything but a Finnish affair.

Martsa, Helsinki, Finland

Dear Mr. Boyes,

Finnish government are already taking actions of tightening the gun ownership law even though guncrimes in Finland are very rare. This whole tragedy and couses of it isn't typical Finnish problem but a nation wide problem. The expectations and the pressure of living is getting harder and harder everywhere and people here and hopely other countries too has awakened to questioning that way of living some time ago.

Irony is a good thing and yes we Finns can laugh to ourselves but in situation like this first time ever in Finnish school history, when people are shocked it isn't the politest way to show your sympathies.

And yes we do have small population per square kilometer because we like to keep ourselves dry rather than live in the lakes.

Eva, Helsinki, Finland

Yes we Finns have more guns per capita than any other country in Europe, but we also have the smallest rate of crimes done with guns in any other country in Europe...

And as an 19 years old guy from Kerava, (the neighbour city of Tuusula) I cant really call this a hard place to live.

PS: There has never been polarbears in Finland ;)

Erkka, Kerava, Finland

Dear Mr Boyes,

I think you´re perfeclty right when writing about Finnish people. After the recession in the beginning on 90`s we forgot taking care of both ourselves and each other, and money, successing internationally and "being European" took the first place. I´m a teacher in Tuusula, livin in Helsinki and I´ve seen what our "technological progress" has brought off. We Finns are nice people but something has really happened. Hard values have ousted our normal needs. We are too immature to tolerate low alcohol taxes or rapidly increasing technology. We need controlling, soft family values and more time with our loved ones. The other question is how we are going to get these values back. Anyway, thanks for your writing, maybe it makes us think about ourselves.

Maria, Helsinki, Finland

Foreigns always complain that we don't speak and we always complain that some of them speak too much. Is it really that weird that we finns don't open our mouth if we don't have anything important to say? Mayby we just don't like chit chat and superficial yaada yaada.

I come from coutryside and I love going to back the to see my dad and relax. Nature is so pure and silent. There you can hear you own thougs (intimidating is in it). And if I'm lucky I can take same elk-meat from my dad freezer. He loves to hunt (animals, not people) with his friends. And I can bet that all of them owns more that one rifle for hunting. Back home I call my dad with my Nokia and chat in Messenger.

People are different around the world. Some like to talk non stop, some don't. Some keep hand gun under the pillow, some have rifles to hunt. Some love the sun and some the snow. Personally, I hate summer, it's too hot for me. But that dosen't make me depsessed and mad. Rather white snow than gloomy rain! :)

Susanna, Tampere, Finland

No, I don't think you can learn much about a society from an extremely untypical event. You judge a society by what normally, or frequently happens. The media world is one where Man Bites Dog; in the real world it is the other way round.

Frank Upton, Solihull,

Mr. Boyes, sure, let us have a debate.

But what exactly should we debate about? You're saying that shooting people to death in a school is something very Finnish. Based on what? Yes, there is a lot of repressed violence and angst in Finland, but shooting people in schools is not something which happens often.

You say technology alienates people to live in their own secluded fantasy worlds, and it is the lack of face-to-face communication which gives rise to depression and to events like the Jokela massacre. Huh? Yes, people talk on-line a lot. Face-to-face talking is not always feasible, as your friends might live a long way from you. This is especially true if you're an unpopular kid, it might be easier to find friends on-line.

Pekka-Eric Auvinen was a very confused young man, interested in Hitler and Stalin, reading the ravings of Pentti Linkola, probably taking the wrong SSRI-medication too, but those traits are not something very Finnish, neither is the act which he committed.

Jani, Västerås,

Jokela massacre is one of the fruits of the great economic depression in 90's. The social safety nets were gathered away and the families, entrepreneurs, employees, children, pensioners were wounded in many different ways. Those children are now young adults and teenagers.

E. Liikanen, Helsinki, Finland

Analysis of a victim. A while ago a young British woman got killed in Italy in what appears to have been a drug and violent sex related murder. What drives a girl away from her homeland to seek comfort among drug abusing violent murderes? Well, this is a typical British affair. People in Britain live on a small cold, windy and rainy island separated from the rest of the Europe. Their live in cold isolated castles and uninsulated houses (every year people die of cold in their homes). Children are separated from their parents' love at very early age and forced to live in faraway boarding schools. Illegal automatic weapons are sold to 12-year-olds and youth use drugs to fight the taste of their food: haggis, kidney pies and various disgusting puddings. Thus it is no wonder why everyone desparately wants to escape all of this. Those who can, are so used to drugs and violence around them, that even when abroad, they tend to seek bad company.
I'd like to write for the Times. Please contact

johtaja, Oulu, Finland

Dear mr.Boyes, you`re absolutely correct in your analysis of us Finns! This country is very difficult to live in, there´s so little positive thinking or kindness here. I´´d rather live somewhere else! yours Tina

kristina vikstedr, hyvinkää, finland

One thing many tend to forget is that the killer displayed a typical Finnish trait: he considered himself a "buttress of society" (Tukari in Finnish). This kind of behaviour is widespread and takes the form of desperately attempting to establish normality. A Lutheran, aspartame flavoured lifestyle in which the only joys are nordic walking and sausage-guzzling. Small wonder then that some people lose it if that's what your supposed to become?

Urpo Pyylevi, Espoo,

Dear Mr Boyes,

Every child needs a loving family. Finland is just one country among the others, where the traditional family values have been put on side. What we have today, is a mass of selfish people, looking so tightly forward, that we dont notice the suffering of the weakest ones. The lonely ones, the ones who do not enough strength to cope by themselves in this world, where there is more and more information, but maybe not enough skills to handle it all. A world, where globalization brings good things, but also uncertain feelings of the future.

Maybe this school shooting wakes up people all over the world , the politicians to make family friendly laws, the parents to stop, to be there for their children. A human being needs another human being to learn about himself and the surrounding world. Sad, but true, too many children and adults too, are getting mentally and phisically ruined growing with their best pal, the Internet.

Johanna , Kokkola, Finland

Good work Mr. Boyes, finns are communicating now :)

Kai Pihlajamaa, Tampere, Finland

I'm am an abroard living Finn and I quite agree ith Mr Boyes as far the fact that the Finns just don't bear to be critized. I do think that this terrible school massacre is for every Finn a good occasion just to admitt that there are things going wrong in their society. For example that the only face to face discussion at home for any youngster is with their computer and internet.
Finland is no paradise on earth and one crucial the Finns are just lacking is "l'esprit critique".
This kind of behavior is typical of any young nation ( Finland will celebrate the ninetieh anniversary of its independance in a couple of weeks ) Finns stil think that they have make the proof of their excellence. It's a matter of maturity of mind.

Pauline, Sceaux, France

Dear fellow Finns,

You're asking your selves how this could happen in Finland. Where else? Finland has been the most violent country in western Europe for years and years. You can look at any study to find that out. Usually we just use the axe or a knife.

Pasi, Helsinki, Finland

Roughly estimated Finland has about 1,6 million registered guns, of which about 80% are weapons for hunting.
That leaves about 320000 guns of other types.
There are about 700 000 gun owner, which means that only about 14% of Finns even have a gun. And those 14% have an estimated 2½ guns per owner.

Where did you come up with the 56 per cent gun ownership?!?

Guns are also VERY strictly regulated, and you can't just go and buy one. First you have to show a need for one, and apply for a permit to buy one. After that, you have to proof that the bought weapon, purpose and license are compatible with eachother. After that, you apply for a permit to own and use the gun. No one get's a permit to carry a gun.

Only about 20% of all homicide cases in Finland involve the use of a gun.

Aleksi K., Helsinki, Finland

Your response to the well-founded criticism is childish, aversive and patronising.

Your naive and childish idea is that teens are the product of their society, nothing more, nothing less. You seem to think that they don't have minds of their own. You don't even consider the possibility that the guy was insane, and born so. Or do you consider mental handicaps such as autism the product of society, too?

Daniel, Tampere, Finland

I was going to suggest that Mr Boyes should be nominated as a foreign correspondent and be sent to Finland indefinitely but that seems too cruel a punishment. So, why not make him a crime reporter and ask him write stories and his interpretations of crimes all around the world (oh, sorry, it was an “analysis”). A British girl murdered in Italy? Must be because those Italians are so passionate and just can’t control themselves - besides they’re subconsciously affected by Dante’s Inferno.

But how do you explain the recent UK crime figures, the meaningless killings of teenagers especially in Great London area, Mr Boyes? The perpetrators may have used guns or knives but the result is the same: youngsters and children killed, sometimes even on their own doorstep. It seems that guns aren’t exactly hard to find in the UK either, despite your supposedly more strict rules, and the fact that some killers are still at large doesn’t add to the general feeling of security.

AV, Tampere, Finland

Dear Mr. Boyes,

Please compare the content in your original article to this response and tell us which one you thought more about? I'm asking, because the questions you now raise are good and should be asked, but your last piece was mainly incoherent rambling and essentially utter nonsense.

You might ask, "honestly, what's really the difference, the underlying point was the same?!" Even if that was the case, as a journalist you should know that a point is only as good as its delivery and even the best of arguments will sound hollow from a bad source.

So, regardless of your - no doubt good - intention to raise discussion, you have only undermined your own and your arguments' authority, by first presenting them with total disregard towards the complex Finnish society, that you also speak of.

Joel, Helsinki, Finland

Maybe Mr Boyens should concentrate on the state of England's teenagers. Having lived in London for 5 years I know that stabbings, gun crime and "happy slapping" happen all the time in here and everywhere in the country. The behaviour of the teenagers is appalling and I bet they are not happy. Kids are allowed to do anything, parents just don't seem to care and I'm not sure if the schools are doing anything either. I have never felt intimitated by teenagers anywhere in Finland but in here I rather cross the street then walk past "hoodies". I say the debate really is needed in here if anywhere. And by the way, better to get a divorce and let everyone get on with their lives then constantly cheat on your spouse as it seems to be done in this country. Divorce does not leave your kids messed up.

Marianne, London, UK

Dear Roger,

Could not agree more with Maija from Helsinki. We are in mourning - havent even buried our dead yet! Could you come back and lead an educated debate for us savages a bit later, please.

Eeva Pekonen, Vihti, Finland

Dear Mr. Boyes, dear Finns, dear other nationalities,

I would like to point out one thing:
The one big reason for this active and somehow self-defensing debate on these three writings of Mr. Boyes is:
The huge difference in the media cultures in Finland and in the UK.
Finnish media culture is (even if it has been changing during the past years by a few magazines) very objective, non-scandalous and kind. I'm a Finnish journalist and already in my studies of journalism this fact, the difference of Finnish and some other countries' (England and Germany, for example) journalism was very clear, and having made my master thesis on comparative journalism (The UK and Finland) and having followed the media of many countries for years, it's obvious that Finnish media is different from many other cultures.
To put it in a few words: We are not at all used to reading this kind of articles heavily loaded with very subjective views, and that explains much of our heated responses here.

One journalist , Nice, France

Yeah. Why you thing that image that you have finland at year 1976 is same that finland at year 2007. Same way i could say that englensmans are whole same that i see in Monthy Python or russian is still USSR or Hitler is still leader of Germany and Germany is still Third Reich.

Kalle-Matias, Kiiminki, North part of finland

Sociological studies about incidents of this nature could maybe wait even a week after the incident has happened? This was a tragedy that affected our small nation on so many levels, that we are only beginning to understand the vastness of it. There is still much to find out about the boy who did this, and we do not even begin to understand the reasons behind all this.

The only conclusion, as a Finn, I would make at this point, is that the mental care of young people in Finland today needs to be revised and given more resources.Preventative mental care might have stopped this from happening. Or then not.

I do not see, how you can draw any sort of conclusions of a nation from an incident of this nature.

We are all in grief - please give us the time to grieve.

Maija, Helsinki, Finland

Guess all previous posting here already made their point about the journalistic quality of Your column.

I'll just wait untill this kind of massacre happens in England. Then i will read your analysis with great interest.
And really, it is a question of "when", not "if"...

Ulf Nyman, Vasa, Finland

I forgot to mention that I lived in Kellokoski, which is in Tuusula, only about a 10 minute drive from Jokela. I now live in Hyvinkää, which is 10 minutes in the other direction, and it is larger, but other than that not much different. All I can say is that you are 100% wrong about Finland and you should just give up with your pointless endeavour of trying to make yourself seem smart! We are generally happy people, but normal, of course having our own unique personalities, which some people say are unique to Finland. If that is the case, at least I take pride in that, because a world where everyone is alike would be a pretty plain world. Tuusula is not some distant hicktown where everyone is depressed, it is a prime location in southern Finland where many people enjoy to live because it is so close to Helsinki, yet far enough from the suburban rush. Like someone else already mentioned, for 2 euros you can take a train to Helsinki in half an hour. Such a long ride...

Oskari, Hyvinkää, Finland

Numbers can be tricky and statistics misleading. The actual gun ownership rate in Finland is 12,3 per cent - a far cry from the incorrect figure given in the article. There are about 1,6 millions of licensed guns in Finland but only 650 000 gun owners. So, the vast majority of approx. 5,27 million Finns neither holds a permit nor owns a gun (but those who do, usually have more than one gun).
Not advocating guns, just recommending to check the facts (as any well-seasoned journalist would do).

Eija, Rockton, USA

Of course it's a good thing to debate the possible underlying reasons why this teenager did what he did. And discussion of certain aspects of Finnish culture may form part of that debate.
But that doesn't excuse the nonsensical analysis written by Roger Boyes, which was almost comical in its sensationalist assumptions and read like it was very hastily thrown together because The Times decided it was a good idea to stick something about Finland in with the main story.

Rob, London, England

I do not know wether to laugh or cry... It makes me frightened that there are poeple, not even that far away from Finland, who are claiming to be educated professionals but do not seem to know much of the subject they are writing about. What about everything else we read? Is this a test in how we should be more critical agains everything else media is feeding us with? How many other articles/news/tv-shows etc. contain as much incorrect infomation? I sincerely hope that no one takes this seriously, how can a newspaper even publish something like this? Maybe I missed the irony in all this and I am just a boring humorless person... I really hope that is the case... The only thing I can say for sure is that this article seems to be a desperate cry for attention, and I really feel sorry for you Mr Boyes.

Annika, Stockholm, Sweden

Hi,
a Finn myself, deeply disturbed by the recent events, I much appreciated the column that appeared in La Repubblica, the Italian paper, the other day. It was an excellent piece of journalism where the name "Finland" or "Jokela" were not even once mentioned. The columnist spoke about "us", obviously referring to our Western way of life. That was a true example of profound insight and analysis, going far beyond ethnographic and nationalistic stereotypes in this genuinely globalised world.

Liisa, Helsinki, Finland

Dear Mr. Boyes,

I hate to say this but let's face it - in general you're completely true. This country has forgotten friendship and importance of being together. And this goes deep. We have very very closed circles and new friends just don't fit to our lives.

My things are just fine, good income, lovely family, friends that don't fit to your story etc but honestly in big picture I feel that thing have gone wrong during couple of decades - I feel that I pay my taxes just to keep tons of unemployed people wasteing their time for nothing.

And we can always compare things to other countries - sure Finland is much better place than most of the world but this doesn't mean that we shouldn't be worried how things are evolving.

Reasons are pretty much political although our nature is suitable for this kind of evolution.

Good news is that we can change this.

Tapani, Espoo, finland

There's an anecdote which describes something very Finnish about our mentality:

An American, a Frenchman, and a Finn encounter an elephant. The American thinks, “How much money can I get for the tusks?” The Frenchman thinks, “What sort of love life does the elephant have?” The Finn thinks, “I wonder what that elephant thinks of me.”

Martti, Lahti, Finland

Mr. Boyes is right in many ways and the Finns just feel insulted - strongly nationalistic as they are. After being hunted by a psychopath for more than 20 years I'd like to underline that the relevant key issues in Finnish society are 1) people do not talk and 2) if they talk, nothing is done. Computers and the modern age have nothing to do with this. Finland has always been like that.

Tiina, Velkua,

I just wanted to point out the fact it takes less than half an hour to travel to Helsinki by train from Tuusula (Jokela) :)

Like the location have made any difference to the killer anyway.

Tiia, Espoo,

We finns do talk about this and other things. The younger generation in Finland is so much more open and better educated than any of the previous generations. However, I do think that in our society we don´t take enough care of the weak ones. A society is excatly so strong it´s weakest members are. So, in that meaning we still have work to do before we can say we achieved something that really has a value.
I think we finns have already learned to talk about things in order to get peace in our minds. The other day I read how some simpleminded people tried to explain everything as God´s wreth against Finland. ( http://www.westborobaptistchurch.com/fliers/nov2007/20071108_nine-dead-finns.pdf )
I think they are so perfect themselves that they can point out their fingers against other people!

Jukka, Eskilstuna, Sweden

Dear Mr. Boyes,
I was surprised to say the least to read your analysis of the Finnish school massacre. I greatly disagree with your assertion that the incident was a very Finnish affair. Finnish people are very private people, in both life and death. It is so foreign for any Finnish person to make a public display of their feelings. I've never heard of a similar incident in Finland. If all this was so Finnish, like you claim, should there not be more incidents like this. During your 30 years knowing Finland you have yet to understand Finnish mentality.
Saying that this incident was a very Finnish affair is like me saying that the bombings in London few years back were very British affair. Crazy, is it not?
Good luck to you, Mr Boyes.

Maija Yagla, Boise,

My comment regarding this article is that I, obviously in a very typically finnish way is speechless, but in the sense that there simply no words to express the stupidity of discussing this matter in the way you do, Mr Boyes.

Mikael Hagman, Helsinki

Mikael Hagman, Helsinki,

Mr Boyes,

this certainly was not a FINNISH affair! It happend becourse world is getting smaller and smaller and mentaly sick people can easily find friends from internet from anywhere in the world.

I think it is sad that you don't seem to understand that peole are different from nation to nation, we have problems as do the british and we are tring to cope with these problems, solve them and we do talk about these problems probably more than you british do. I would like to know how you Mr Boyes have had an idea that we don't? If you know any finnish and you are in Finland you should have seen and heard how we talk and how we are questioning from one another why?

What I am tring to say is that this article was a sad one, it shows that the writer does not have any feelings or respect for other people or nations. I am trying to understand this writer but I jus can't. Should I even? It is sad that THE TIMES has so poor standards nowadays.

Annukka , Helsinki, Finland

"56 per cent gun ownership"
Thats so wrong. There may be 2 million registered guns in Finland. But Im sure that less than 10% of finns owns a gun. There are lots of guns on countryside. One guy may own 5-10 guns there. But in towns guns are very rare. I know no one who has a gun and lives in town.

Teemu, Jyväskylä, Finland

Dear Roger,

Don,t speak things You don t know. I have not much money, but Finland is the best country to live.

sihee, Siuntio, FINLAND

As I was translating your first column post to my British husband, he was clearly a lot more outraged by it than I was. In fact, I was amused. It is sad that such a picture is being painted of this country, and it's sad that for people that know nothing or very little about Finland, this will be something they know this country by. But there's nothing I can do about it, so why get upset.
And I have to agree with my fellow Finns, your column told a very one sided story, generalizing the whole of Finland to be full of depressed people with guns ready to shoot themselves.
I consider myself to be lucky having been born to this country.

Other than that, I like the option D. Polar bears rock.
Too bad we don't have any here....

G, Lahti,

I for one was a clinically depressed teenager in a small town in Finland. I listened to metal and spent most of my time in the internet, contacting others who weren't so happy themselves.

Not once did it occur to me that I would pull another Columbine. Not once did it occur to me that I should purchase a gun and murder my (yes, I admit, I thought this) inferior and stupid classmates. I suffered alone, with the help of my fellow teens online. I wasn't interested in revenge or violent rampage. I studied extreme movements but didn't engage in them.

How is the Finnish perpetrator any different from me except that he took one step further? We are talking about accidents, little quirks in the brain, wrong medications, different personalities. It could not have been any of us, he didn't deal with his "Finnish problems" as rest of us.

Emilia, Helsinki, Finland

I do think you have a point, mr. Boyes. It seems that not many of my Finnish co-citizens agree with your view of Finland, but I agree with most of your arguments. Well, except the rather clumsy reference to polar bears, as we don't have any. If we had, they had been shot by zealous Finnish hunters whom are making their best effort to get rid of all endangered beasts in Finland.
The truth has many faces; one of them is the shining bright techno-paradise, promoted and marketed by Nokia and the people in power. The one truth is that the Finnish society, like every other Western civilization, is blinded by the combination of greed and technology.
In our schools there has been severe cutbacks in budget, as there have been in Mental Care and general Health Care. Poor people can nowadays except a gloomy life in elder wards, in diapers and on Diapams. The richest part (10%) of the population has gained most of the wealth, and more and more people just drop out, as they have less and less.

The Black Arrow, TURKU, FINLAND

Dear Mr Boyes,
You were right, about everything. That is how we finns are. We have never been able to communicate with one and other and the modern technology society in witch developing Finland has had a part in, has made it possible that now we don´t ever have to communicate with one and other face to face. Many of us suffer from that apparently or that is what you´re saying. But there´s a fine line between acting and just talking about it. That is what separates us from Mr. Auvinen. The world is changing and this is a result from it. We´re not anymore "on our own" everything is shared and multicultured. Even the mighty will fall. Now that you´re in Finland? I´d advice you also to do a story from finnish nurses that they are in two weeks leaving their jobs, because they have never been fairly treated and yet again don´t get a payrise that they really do deserve. Enough nurses, enough persons to help the young and this tragedy might have been prevented, might have.

Emma, Lappeenranta, Finland

Continued from the last post...

Our society is called "information society", but I tend to think it's actually just "data society" - cold economical and technological numbers are emphasized instead of more human approach. All of the Arts are diminished in schools because they do not bring profit, and therefore there is no reason to teach them and waste precious, calculated time which can be used to study economics and hard science. The land of distant engineers, depression, alcoholism - that's of course not the whole truth, but it is part of Finnish society, whether us Finnish accept it or not.

Despite of all this, it still should be taken into consideration that the overall situation in Finland is better than it is in most of the European countries. But the case of Jokela schootings proves that the gap to the violent atrocities of the USA and the rest of Europe is closing in. Now we have spree killings, but what comes next? A serial killer in the vein of Saucy Jack?

The Black Arrow, TURKU, FINLAND

There are a lot of guns in Finland, true, but the gun crime rate remains very low. With cases like Stephen Lawrence and Damilola Taylor, together with a soaring gun crime rate, the U.K. has its own problems to worry about. Let's try to portrait the events in Jokela vs the reality in Finland, not vs the reality in the UK.

An operating pattern for school massacres appears to be developing, together with a network for similar minded people who have been bullied and marginalised. What is new are instant global publicity through Internet that is in part driving these acts; the amount of information about Columbine and Jokela freely available to everyone planning similar acts; and the ability for like-minded people to connect in the web.

Realistically, we should expect an even faster, and more pervasive, global distribution of crime operating models, including high school massacres, driven by the web. Finland is no exception - we just got there early.

Ilkka, Helsinki, Finland

Ilkka Rauvola, Helsinki, Finland

Mass murderers and serial killers go back to the dawn of time. They are born out of despair or social isolation or they were just born like that. They can be kids from semi-rural Finland or doctors in the NHS but the common denominator is that they do something that goes against the general moral fiber and the survival of the species. What makes this a particularly Finnish tragedy or 7/7 particularly British? Nothing - acts of insanity disguised behind some cheap political slogans. I think that journalists, British and Finnish, need to raise questions about the root causes of these tragedies but finger pointing will not stop murder. Tightening gun control in Finland is not the answer either, just ask the good people of Manchester, Liverpool and London whether they feel safer since they can't have hunting rifles but the gang-bangers still have their drive-by-specials. Banning legal guns will not stop criminals and nutcases from killing, neither does internet censorship.

Rolle Nieminen, Newcastle-upon-Tyne,

Don't we think a mass murder deserves debate? Was that your way to try to invite to a debate? It's like, after the school killing in Scotland I'd write that it was a very British thing, probably caused by the infamously bad english food.

The funniest part was the "counting days to get to the Asia and sun." Yeah right, we Finns are stupid, why won't we travel to Great Britain instead? I mean the weather there in winter is oh-so sunny and all the friendly Brits are there for nice debates because, hey, nobody wants to travel away from England in the winter.

I'm not saying this is a paradise, far from it. I think we Finns are idiots, we just don't know how to use alcohol. The government lowers the tax on booze and look what happened to violence and illnessess caused by alcohol. Another problem, not just in Finland, are violent computer games. Surely not harmful for everybody, not suitable for all. And bullying in school should be addressed with more resources.

Janne, Hyvinkää, Finland

Dear Mr. Journalist,

You simply hit a nerve, which is not a good thing if the target collectively has relatively low self-esteem as an imagined community. It is not acceptable to say those things you said because you are a foreigner - what you think means a great deal to us Finns. Sad to say, but our honorable media was having a field day over the international attention they got over this horrific tragedy. "Wow, our footage was on CNN!".

Besides, your controversial opinion-piece was quite good. I could relate to it. Not that I agree with it wholeheartedly but it shook things up and hopefully will add to inevitable debates about our society.

Antti, Tampere, Finland

Antti Kukko, Tampere, Finland

Phew! After reading your first article Mr. Boyes and now this one and all the comments from Finnish citizens on both, one thing comes across 'loud' and clear - you Roger Boyes, are still firmly on the hook! On pain of eliciting a tirade of Finnish wrath - in which the word 'patronizing' is bandied freely about - I would just like to compliment the Finnish respondents on their excellent command of the English language - and also to express my awe at their impressive ability for what amounts to two almost 'en masse', (very) descriptive 'counter offensives'(!) In my opinion, valid and informative points are presented by both Mr. Boyes and all Finnish respondents.
I have nothing to add of any worth to any of this, except my deepest, heartfelt sympathies for the victims and their families - and my sorrow for the family of Pekka-Eric, who are most certainly also suffering for the tragic actions of their lost boy.

Jean Booth, Voorburg, The Netherlands

Mr. Boyes, don't mess with us, The Finns. We are the only nation, which keep captured British Navy vessel! And only nation I know, which are so sport nuts, that even second place in a war is awarded.

In reality Finland is so calm place that we are seldom in world news. Tragedies happen sometimes, and we can live forward even we know that there is no sunrise tomorrow. Few others can live so happy in same situation. Sun can rise for us a week later (-;

Risto Jääskeläinen, Järvenpää, Finland

Yes I have been to Tuusula. I have lived just 10 kilometers from this school. I have also lived couple of years in Oslo,Norway and in Sweden. Have visited most of the European Countries (even several places in UK) and I have been several times to the States. Still don't feel you manage to write about the real reasons behind this tragedy. We may not talk the way you feel is the correct way to talk but we talk to our friends in the finnish way. Every culture has their own way to communicate and if you don't know a word in Finnish you are not inside the culture. Even if you have visited the country several times. Still not the same. Sorry, but still no respect to you so called analyses.

J, Helsinki,

Dear sir,

Writing about this matter is difficult when one has not studied the facts. It is easy to blame this incident on some generalities. Your claims:

a) the offspring of divorced parents; b) unemployed; c) a teenager stuck in a small dormitory suburb without much cash

There are no hints of those problems involned in this case. The pupil was a follower of Stalin, Hitler, and the Finnish eco-fascist Pentti Linkola with population depletion ideas. It is not hard to figure out where did this young man got his ideas. Hint: look no further than his own bedroom.

You are very right to take up the problems of unemployment and divorce. By the way, Tuusula has one of the lowest unemployment rates in Finland: on 30 September 2007 3,0% (three percent) (541 persons) and 200 open jobs. The general discussion, undoubtedly, will linger on the general "bad feeling" of people. Jokela is above average in these ways. You are right that discussion will be superficial.

Writing from Jokela, Tuusula

Jon, Tuusula, Finland

Shame on you Mr Boyes and on your employer "The Times".
Wake up Mr Boyes, the British society has a lot more problems with youth crimes than Finland and probably all Europe.

I can almost guarantee that the number of youth crimes in UK since 1990 are much larger than all the youth crimes that happened in Finland from 1900-2007 including the Tuusula massacre!

Abdullah, Surrey

Abdullah, Guildford,

I think Roger Boyes' article isn't without insight, in fact it is rather his own insights into Finnish society and what he has picked-up along the way about how some people appear to live in Finland. Ultimately this is a very subjective viewpoint and lacks much formal critical analysis -half-hearted statistics don't count.

The original article is also very, very disrespectful since it was written directly after the tragedy. Barely enough time for people in Finland to really grasp what has happened and focus on what can be done.

What exactly is he getting at with the mythical legends? This is very patronising talk. Not to mention the good'ole use of 'they' in the article. Coming from Britain, I am very inclined not to say 'them', 'we' or 'they'. Finland has lots of different cultures within its own people and those peope who have chosen to move to Finland and make it their home too.

Chris, London, UK

Was case "Maddy" a typical British affair. A group a people from UK having a nice holiday in southern part of Europe. Drinks lots of wine and beer and just loose thier child. We all know that you British behave worst in holiday resorts in Spain and Portugal. You just drink as much you can and make a lot of noise. And if there happends to be a soccer game you might just brake whole town. So typical British. You are so pollite...Bull shit!! You nice way talk with words like "Please and excuse me" are just empty words when the whole nation act like it does. Thank god I was born up North.

J, Helsinki,

Could it be that we Finns are not used to foreigners analysing our society? We all too readily accept the generalisations our media feed us about, say, Britain or America, because we are not in a position to judge whether the facts or impressions are correct. But when a foreigner writes about us, we have personal experience against which to mirror these views. We no longer read the text objectively and are unwilling to accept that some of what is said might be true. Please keep writing, Mr Boyes.
Susan S, Elimäki, Finland

Susan Sinisalo, Elimäki, Finland

Dear Mr. Boyes, I commented both your articles published on Times Online , but somehow my comments vanished to cyberspace. In my messages I wasn't so much commenting your knowledge - or lack of it - on Finnish society, but the fact you chose to approach a terrible, human tragedy, from overtly sociological point of view. While I aknowledge that we have a number of social problems here in Finland, I think it's very reductive and oldfashioned - very late 70's, early 80's Brittish Social Studies influenced - to link actions by a deeply disturbed human being almost inclusively to his social context. If the social aspect had to be brought in, I would have liked to see some consideration given to the effects of the early 90's economic depression - the devastating effects the cuts to public funding had on healthcare and education - since they may have really played a role in Tuusula.

Best Regards, a former small town girl from the woods now happily living in Helsinki,

Satu, Helsinki, Finland

Mr. Boyes, this incedent certainly is worth of debate, that you've got right. But first of all, right now, for us Finns, this is a time for mourning about something, that has never happened in this country before. It may be difficult to understand for someone, who comes from a bigger country, how this has effected this small country, all the people in it. So please forgive us, if we find it hard to debate with you just now.

Anniina, Helsinki , Finland

Having seen more than a share of comments in the past from Finns putting down the US at every given opportunity, I can only say to them 'if you can't take it, don't dish it out'. Accept you have a problem and don't try and blame others.

Viv, London, UK

I agree there is something typical here. This is the third time in a relatively short period something like this happens. There was the shooting in the school in Rauma a few years ago, there was the bombing insidence in Vantaa, and now this. Its quite alot for a country of 5 millions.

Matti, Hollola, Finland

Dear Mr. Boyes,

A lot has already been said about this subject - some of them really good comments that you should think about, some of them of not so high quality. But personally, what I find as the main problem in the first article that started this whole debate, is your way of making analyses based on data, which doesn't qualify for such assumtions.

One cannot write an analysis about a whole society and nation based on qvantitative data (population density, gun ownership, climate, depression rates etc.) Even the way of grounding your opinion on your own experiences from Finland I find lacking in reliability . I'm a Finn, who has lived in Denmark and still, even though Denmark is also another Nordic country, I wouldn't feel that I'd have enough knowledge to start making any deep analysis about the Danish society. Especially if it would be after a tragedy like this, I wouldn't even feel the right to do so.

Liisa, Vaasa,

I've been in Tuusula. It's ten minutes away from my home, when I'm heading to the vibrating clubs of Hellsinki. All the way to the Hellsinki is about 40 minutes away (from my house). Not so far, I think

Nina Lehto, Hyvinkää,

May I add three points to this on-line debate:

1. You should avoid rushing to conclusions about the reasons for this tragedy until the full facts have been made public.

2. It is to be hoped that the authorities will conduct a thorough and independent investigation into the background of this boy.

3. Spare a thought for the boy's parents and what they must be going through.

Consider these points: the boy was on powerful psychiatric medication that is known to cause violent behaviour in some cases. Why was he on this medication? Presumably for some psychiatric condition, but what was the underlying cause of his condition? When I read that the boy "had lost faith in people" and was "filled with anger" my thought was that he had suffered some terrible trauma in his past such as severe bullying or childhood sexual abuse. I don't believe that general factors like divorce or dark winters have anything to do with this tragedy.

Stephen, Helsinki

Stephen Band, Helsinki, Finland

Dear Mr Boyes, would you call this a debate: I generalize and proglaim that well-educated Brits' superior ignorance and lack of empathy is consequence of trauma. This trauma must be result of the public school system, because the children are separated from their mothers an fathers?

There is lot of things going wrong in this world, but obviously you really can't see what is wrong in Finland.

Mr Boyles, really, how on earth you can write something like this: "But it happened in Finland, didn’t it? Shouldn’t you ask why and not just leave the questioning to visiting foreigners? "

This is not all personal; I've met few older Brits who still think that it's their job to teach and patronize foreign nationals. That is not conversation or debate. Maybe the delusion of superiority comes from the fact that naturally the Brits are superior in english language. In year 2007 I personally find it hard to believe that the superior attitude would still be echoes of the colonialism.

Heikki, Helsinki, Finland

This Finnish sad outburst of Tuusula is just the top of an iceberg. Accidents will happen even in the best regulated families. The point is that the families in general have got far too little knowledge of the dangers of the media.

Mediaeducation is not only a must for homes, it should belong to authorities, adults and everybody. It has been critisized that the Finnish Board of Education for instance appointed a group of specialists for mediaeducation a year ago without any specialist of mental health.

60 % of children´s PCplays deal with violence. Children spend 20-30 times more of their spare time with the media rather than with their families.

Fighting against the dangers of Internet is a job of Sisyfos. You turn your stone up to the top of a hill, your stone falls down again and you start again. The sad moments of Tuusula could have happened anywhere else in Europe. This time they happened in Finland which is sometimes called Minor America and behaves like it too.

Olli Salokangas, Hämeenlinna , Finland

Dear Mr. Boyes,

As you were rampaging to the aid of the Finns in this St. Georgian mode with teeth you would not let the well-known British excellence in dental care save, it did not occur to you, that debate is an exchange of opinions, rather than dictation? I can only conclude the conceit and condescension we are reading from your journalistic pieces are one of the outcomes of the long tradition of British humanism in the best Kiplingian spirit of carrying the white man's burden.

T.D., Washington, DC

We have lived here for thousands of years, and survived all the four seasons.

We do not believe in violence. Our mythological hero Vainamoinen used words to defeat the enemy. And Jesus is the Word. This is our first choice even today, to negotiate (like Martti Ahtisaari). I know God has a great plan for Finland.

The mass murder in Jokela was very strange, not Finnish at all. We do need to discuss and try to understand why this happened. This mass murder is so unlike anything that has happened before.

Have we forgotten that human race was created to be the
image of God (even though we failed and Jesus had to step in). The love of God is the main thing: to love and to be loved. Finland is a good country, worth defending for, and the best place for us Finns, said one very famous Finn. I agree.

Jesus is Lord!

eeva

Eeva Niemimaa, Helsinki, Finland

Dear Mr. Boyes,

According to YLE (Finnish equivalent of BBC), a group of experts is being assembled already to analyse Wednesday's events and what lead to them. Both ordinary Finns and the media are reflecting on the events, too, and will surely do so long after this has stopped being news in the Times. Of course non-Finns are welcome to join the debate, and to propose their own analyses. But your 'analysis' was insensitive, simplistic, misleading, and ill-timed.

As a commentator said before, there is a time for mourning, and a time for calm reflection on the causes of what happened. This does not mean we must all be reduced to inarticulate moaning for a few days, or that we mustn't think for a while because that would be disrespectful. But it does mean it would be wiser, and more respectful, to wait a while--at least until more of the facts are in!--before offering a theory such as you have offered.

The Finnish government have withdrawn their opposition to tighter gun laws.

Hille, Oitti, Fin / Pittsburgh, USA,

Dear Mr. Boyes,

I am not aware if You speak Finnish (I do and I hope You do), but there has been only one topic of discussion - we Finns talk, believe it or not, and debate also and it's usually no-nonsense regarding serious matters (we don't have a Royal Family to waste time with) - in this country after last Thursday, of what is Finland today, what the country should be like and what has gone wrong. There are big problems, another thing is what to try to do with them. Debate is not enough. We need to do something. We talk (please no cheap stereotype shots), we should also act.
I am not going to repeat that topic of discussion, but You may give yourself a chance to guess what I am referring to.

Janne, Helsinki,

In Finland there has been 2 horrible things: an 18 years old boy exploded a shopping centre (2001) and now this unbelieveble shooting tragedy.
Two mad boys don't make other Finns (we are about 5 millions) crazy!
And we are not depressive (except 5 million minus 2).
Could it be possible that this global society (the internet p.g.) is the reason? These kind of things begin to be reality in every part of The Globe, even here in Finland, unfortunately.
Hope that we (both You there in England and we here) will have a nice, peacefull and pleasant life, to The End!

Silja Hämeenoja, Vantaa, Finland

Interesting. It will happen again in Finland.
I have ben there several times, it is a lovely country with friendly and peaceful people and very progressive. BUT, you have guns in the general population so it will happen again.
here in England, with our tight gun controls, it only reall happens in those communities which, tragically I think, are not assimilated in England, but it does not happen on the general community.

Footnote: to qualify the above statement about England, i am refering to immigrant communities in poorer areas which are still seperated from the general society and where some members come from areas with gun crime and so do not have great co-operation with the police, etc. Why are they excluded? perhaps it is our fault, but just to qualify I was not being racist.
But to reiterate. Finland, it may not happen for a few years, but you will have more shootings because you have guns.

Alan Moroney, Brighton, England

There is one thing in Mr. Boyes articles that can be pointed with accusing finger. It isn't the high divorce rate (the shooter's parents are still married and he even had a little brother) nor the fact that many people live in small villages (the shooter didn't: 50 km is no distance in a country as large as Finland). It's no thing only characteristic to Finland.

It is the internet. The shooter did not only find information about the school shootings in USA but he also found people thinking the same way he did. He also got an opportunity to publish his opinions and plans. Without internet the situation might be another - or it could be the same. Nobody can know. According to the Finnish press the shooter told he was using antidepressants. This is also related to the internet: two of the drugs he mentioned aren't on the market in Finland. Internet is the only reasonable source where he could have got those drugs. We should be focusing the debate on the real facts, not on one's believes!

Eeva, Helsinki, Finland

Dear Mr Boyes,

This news is from your honorable paper
The Times, November 9th, 2007

"I cut up my victim and ate her, said killer.
A British man who claimed that he had dismembered and eaten the body of a woman faced 12 years’ imprisonment"

Is this a very British affair? It was done by a Brit, wasn't it?

Mark, Helsinki, Finland

Dear Mr Boyes,

You have forgotten mention one really important stereotyphic thing about Finns: that we don't have any sense of humor. That really explains why all of us are not laughing about your articles.

God bless you Boyes. You are truly gift to this world and pride of your country

Sepi, Mikkeli, Suomi - Finland

Your article about Finland and the Finns was fairly accurate; it is a dark, cold and sparsely populated country. If you see a laughing Finn, he is either drunk or mentally ill, any criticism of Finland or Finns is always taken as a personal insult. There will be no intelligent discussion in Finland about this tragic event as for possible reasons or future prevention, it is futile to try have an intelligent discussion with the Finnish populace, because it is not used to intelligently analyzing any subject. The Finnish school system concentrates of giving and remembering lots of information, but any kind of discussion and analysis is scorned.

The easiest route will be taken; new anti gun laws and that's that. End of discussion.

outi, bellingham,wa, usa

Carry on with the debate and the discussion Roger Boyes. You´re a nice bloke and a thorough debate is refreshing.

Finland experienced a bloody Civil War in 1918. The Finns are the only nation in the world who beat the mighty Soviet Union in our Winter War 1939 as you probably well know.

Finland also took part in the World War II. Even Britain declared a war against us as a good ally of the moustached "Uncle Joe". Your people had some nasty worries about the German finger on the trigger at that time.

Taking all that bleeding of blood into consideration the young Finnish gunboy maniac called Pekka Eric Auvinen, how sad youngster he may ever be, is not the end of the world for us.

Olli Salokangas, Hameenlinna, Finland

Well I think that we are not so far north away from England. In England it´s also dark and cold, you guys are not like in Italy or what ever. :)
Take care honey

Jone, Hki, Finland

I don't think it can be explained in terms of being a Finnish thing or not. Such things happened in the United States (Columbine) and elsewhere. Being a teacher I suspect it may have some connection with the way schools are organized in Finland and the US, but I know the US school system much better than the Finnish. Are there similarities between the two school systems? How are lessons etc. organized? Divorces, suicide rate, etc. don't explain much. There are divorces in Italy, but we haven't had shoot-outs in a school so far--though Italy is surely not a country without violence and social problems. So I think you should focus on schools and how they are organized. Can students socialize easily? Are teachers able to communicate with them on issues unrelated to the subject they teach? Are they in contact with the families, be they bi- or mono-parental? Those are the questions that should be asked now.

Vittorio Caffè, Rome, Italy

What the Finns themselves think about their country, and what others think about it, are two different things. It's important to be self-critical and objective. I've read several articles in which immigrants or foreign workers who had moved to Finland described their experiences, and they all remarked some xenophobia in the country and difficulty in making friends. But it's possible that the Finns themselves aren't aware of this.

Gene, Baltimore, USA

Oh Finland is like a Harry Potter land. Man you make me laugh :) Thanks and take care honey ;D

Jone, Hki, Finland

Hello M.Roger Boyes!

It`s a pity that you have to be a journalist in Finland!!!!

Why to work in a country you hate? There are so many countries in the world...

You should stay in your own homeland!

The modern world is international. And I think it`s interesting. There is something positive and something negative in all the countries....

Maija, LEZAN,

I like Finland. Nice country, beautiful woman, a good landskape.

nicola, bari, italy

I conclude that you, mr Boyes, define the word "debate" as "randomly accusing things in society I do not personally like for causing a monstrous criminal act". You see, that is where your article fails, it has nothing to do with the case at hand.

It would be alot more interesting to read an article about the ecofascist movement present in Finland (and other countries), or some kind of story about the killers mental health and how it was treated by the school or psychiatrists.

And please, the divorce rate could just as easily preserve mental health when it releives children from living with constantly arguing parents, but I guess it would be a bit complicated to think about that, since you probably do not personally like divorces.

Magnus Martinsson, Gothenburg, Sweden

I'm afraid I still don't understand what makes this affair so Finnish. Except the fact that Auvinen happened to born here.

(PS. Sure we're wondering why. After this case government has even decided to tighten the gunlaw or whatever it is in English)

Linnea, Seinäjoki, Finland

It is true that this horrific incident took place in Finland, but doesn't that prove that we are a part of a global society. This wasn't a "finnish invention" any more than the shootings in the US were "American". In this time and age knowledge and ideas travel at light speed and are shared by most of the world.

Nobody's denying that we have social and societal problems also here in Finland. There are much to improve e.g. in mental health care for youth. But to connect this massacre to Finland's dark winters and to suggest that we do not socialize during the winter is quite frankly absurd. The nature of friendship does not change during the winter and the society does not come to a standstill.

The reasons for this incident are universal and the depression of teenagers is a global phenomenon. Although Mr. Boyes problably had good intentions in writing this artice, it is a grose simplification of the matter and searches for answers in the wrong places.

Iipi, Turku, Finland

Dear Mr. Boyes,

I've been following your articles and the reactions for a little while now and I feel that I have to say something as well.
I moved to Finland a few years ago and had the same stereotypes as you have. I won't deny that Finns aren't very
talkative, the winter's aren't dark and the country very big, but it is impossible to use those facts as a reason for what happened.

I even dare to say that they support the opposed. Finnish friends are true friends and the winters here bring people together. I agree with most of the reactions given, with the conclusion that what happened has a very complex reason and can't be explained by some quick analysis of a country, but should be seen in a broader perspective.

Continues in next comment (1)

Willem-Anne van Bolderen, Helsinki/Rotterdam,

I'm a Finn and I have to say that I agree with Mr. Boyes to a very large extent. This is not a Paradise on Earth. We have a long tradition of violent crime and suicide, both of which rank the highest (or the 2nd highest, does it matter?) in Europe. The civil war of 1918 was one of the bloodiest in the history of mankind. It still echoes in society, although no-one claims responsibility and the names of the executioners are not published. People boast about the economic success of Nokia while they close their eyes or despise the less fortunate members of society. Some political groups' main concern towards the poor is that they shouldn't get too much social benefits from the system. Not a paradise indeed.

Martti, Lahti, Finland

Hello, I'm not from Finland nor am I Finnish but I would like to say it's all easy to look at other countries and blame outside influences but it's very difficult to take a long hard look at yourselves, maybe you should try?

Kita, Osaka, Japan

Mr Boyes,
I agree that this issue certainly deserves further attention in all respects. However, I think your way to raise discussion by generalization based on your personal assumpitions and sentiments, seemingly without further knowledge of the Finnish society, is rather shallow, to say the least.

Tii Summanen, Helsinki

Tii Summanen, Helsinki, Finland

Dear Mr Boyes,

Yes, the Jokela massacre deserves debate and if you can speak or read Finnish, you can see that debate is already on-going (despite it is dark and winter). You see Mr Boyes, we debate mainly in Finnish, although we can also do that in English, because we are taught foreign languages at school.

Do we leave questioning to visiting foreigners? Mr Boyes, we do not do that. We welcome questioning from foreigners, but only if questioning is grounded and well informed, not based on fairly tales and myths.

Nonna, Oulu, Finland

The article was very poor in content and taste. Agreed.
However the reponses seem little better.
The public debates in Finland are more wide and open where socio-economic and virtual reality worlds are central.
Most reponses here are lacking in critical awareness and therefore fall into the same stereotypical traps.
One does not counter a bad article by replying in poor ways.
What is good for the goose is also good for the gander...

from the north, kemi,

Just a comment on "very finnish affair", since you seem to have your facts right...

- Person who is interested in communism at the age of 13 and tries to influence schoolmates aren't very finnish.
- Person who is inspired by national-socialism and Adolf Hitler's 'Mein Kampf', isnt very finnish
- Person who reads Nietzsche production at the age of 15 isn't very finnish
- Person who copycats the music and MO from columbine killings isn't very finnish
- Person who uses 'american way' of displaying the date 11/7/2007 instead of local 7/11/2007 has gotten the influence from somewhere else than own society

There are signs that eg. the principal was warned before the incident. Because of NOT being a typical finnish affair, the warnings were not taken seriously.

Dear Mr. Boyes, if this is so typical and waiting to happen, why didnt you warn the authorities beforehand?

Jussi, Tampere, Finland

You are very superficial, Mr. Boyes!

Iris Kobek, Turku, Finland

Sir
Some 15 years ago a Scottish schoolteacher shot at and killed several students at his school. If I remember correctly no Finnish newspaper published an analysis of the case blaiming it on the Brittish depressive and aggressive character traits. And UK has extremely strict gun control laws.

After the Jokela incident I still feel safer in Helsinki which is rarely visited by inebriated Brittish thugs who fight every night in Spain, Italy, France, whereever there is a pub open. As these Brits do not read my fear of them is not increased after writing this letter.

I fully agree that a deep and thorough analysis of the Jokela case is called for. I still am not convinced that it was a typically Finnish disaster. However, we Finns may be more aggressive than Brits. If we were forced to live in your houses and eat your food we probably would be much more aggressive. And you can tolerate those conditions.

I hope my generalizations outclass yours.

Pekka Ahonen, Helsinki,

Dear Mr. Boyes,

I am rather appalled and disappointed that a prestigious newspaper like The Times allows such a one sided and extremely generalising article to be published.

I am a Finn, from a town close to Tuusula, living in Nottingham, the gun capital of UK and I work with young people from disadvantaged backgrounds. Even though I do see, and hear about, misery and trouble in the young people's lives I am devoted to support, I would never generalise it to be a norm throughout the whole nation, because it would just be untrue. I would not dream of judging the whole nation over the actions of just a few, nor shall I hold you comments against your country as I am sure my British friends do not share your views.

I am glad and proud that my fellow Finns are more open minded as well as much more knowledgeable about your country than you have proofed to be about ours.

I hope you enjoy your Nokia phone, which you undoubtedly have in your pocket.

Kind regards,
Essi, Nottingham

Essi Niittymaki, Nottingham, UK

Mr. Boyes, you should understand that most Finnish people are not unlike the prototypical repressed middle-class Englishman that John Cleese so comically, yet accurately, portrays in the film 'A Fish Called Wanda'. Like Cleese's character, most Finns just want to lead their life quietly, respectably, and without causing embarrassment.

Historically, we Finns have been very sensitive when it has come to our national image. Even today we desperately need other countries' acceptance and approval - perhaps this a leftover from the time we had to be Russia's yes-man.

Your exaggerated depiction of the Finnish way of life may have indeed contained a grain of truth and thus evoked so many indignant comments.

I really think that this case deserves debate and your - at times simplistic - article has given a good stimulus to it.

Rikalainen, Turku, Finland

Sure we have to think what is going wrong in the Finnish society. But it still no excuse for bad journalism with arrogant and ignorant attitude - usually found in US newspapers.

Pekka Pekkala, Auckland, New Zealand

Good grief.

This is a truly sad piece of special pleading. Certainly society has changed in Finland in the past decades. Which is of course a SPECIFICALLY Finnish phenomenon, and thus justifies the branding of this whole tragedy as "a very Finnish affair".

Nobody's saying Finland is a paradise on earth, you just might want to first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

As an aside, I either still am or have been 3 of your 4 Finnish loosers, and it's really not that bad, and certainly not uniquely Finnish. I have also often visited Tuusula, and it bears very little resemblance to the frozen wasteland of your description.

Probably the most offensive part of this is the bit where you imply that you are the only one raising questions and initiating debate about this incident, especially when you're not even doing that. You're just being nasty.

BTW,It's bad form to let the culture shock bias your writing this much.

Frost, Helsinki, Finland

There are no polar bears in Finland.

Mikko, Oulu, Finland

Time to debate? Something has really changed. It must be the green house phenomenon. Polar bears has disappeared from the streets of Helsinki. So, cause we can't hunt them anymore, people get frustrated and start to shoot each other.
Maybe there should be a warning at the airport not to wear anything white and furry when showing off as a the times reporter here anymore.
As a frustrated teenager I really think that The Times is overrated.

LM, Helsinki , Finland

The Virginia Tech shooting was still fresh in everybody's mind when I arrived in this country from Finland some time ago. Back then, we talked about it with Americans actually from Virginia, and I said it could happen anywhere; anywhere in the world a random person can go mad and on a shooting rampage.

And now it happened.

Finland is far from being paradise; us Finns quite often get all smug about how our country is so safe and uncorrupted - and in many ways it is. But you are right. We have a high divorce rate. We have a high suicide rate. We have a lot of guns (even I know how to use one). As a nation, we have a drinking problem. And the state is short of money for mental health work; all that contributes. But most of all, we are at loss with parenting, with support for the youth and with true, solid values that could carry the entire society.

I just hope that when the shock wear off, the country can have a real discussion and not get stuck in trivial things.

Lisa, Oxford,

Dear Mr. Boyes, don't you think a mass murder deserves a well informed debate?

Dismayed, Tampere, Finland

The comments about Tuusula and the vibrating clubs in Helsinki (I actually come from above the arctic circle) are again out of place. Dear Mr. Boyes you don't have a clue. Finland is full of small places that appear lifeless and dull but you have no idea of the lives of the people in those small communities. There is live worth living outside Helsinki (outside London) outside all vibrating clubs and what ever. It might be rewarding, regarding you as a journalist, to explore the cultures different from those around your own belly button Dear Mr Boyes.

- We do ask why, and the visiting foreigners might want to take a moment in silence and look carefully around and maybe learn something.
-A crack in the society; Dear Mr. Holmes , have you found something we didn't know. Good for you.
-I don't think a mass murder deserves a debate. It deserves to be silenced to death.

Now I shall harness my loyal reindeer and gallop across the frozen lake to my humble dwelling amongst the woods.

Marianna, Helsinki, Finland

Do you really think, Mr. Boyes, that this is the right time to be a smart- aleck?

Is this kind of provoking necessary?

Liisa, Tampere, suomi

Mr Boyes. As, behind your sarcasm, I’m sure you’re well aware, the outrage over your article does not represent an unwillingness on the part of the Finns to discuss the implications (for Finland and elsewhere) of Wednesday’s events, rather it is an expression of dismay at a cobbling together of isolated statistics which, at the Times, apparently passes as serious journalism. As a foreigner here, one’s eyes are perhaps more open to the problems that exist, and those problems should rightly be discussed, but your original article goes no way towards doing this. The young feel disaffected in many countries (not least the UK); they carry mobiles and spend hours on the internet; their parents are divorced. What, then, if we disregard your misplaced Kalevala analogies, makes this “a very Finnish affair”? Whether you have visited Finland in the past is beside the point. It is the specious nature of your comments that has caused offence, not the fact that you ask valid, necessary questions.

David Hackston, Helsinki, Finland

I found it offensive that during a deeply upsetting time for Finland Rodger
Boyes felt it was necessary to launch such an unfounded and spurious attack on a
country of 5 million based on the actions of one crazed individual.

I am a British national who has been living in Finland for over a year. Finland
is a beautiful country with a wonderful society. Countries like England have a
lot to learn from the way things are done here.

Finnish people are friendly and intelligent, unlike Rodger Boyes they pride
themselves on getting their facts straight before offering an opinion.

To point out just two of the articles many misconceptions. Finns are incredibly
active, sports participation is among the highest in Europe and indeed Britain's
spend more time on the Internet than any other nation in Europe.

Finns spend most of their long vacations (winter or summer) relaxing in the
countries beautiful nature rather than 'escaping'.

James Durston, Helsinki, Finland

Somehow I had just missed the whole point that exactly made this massacre "Finnish". Was it the fact that it happened in a village or that it happened in November? Or what was the crucial difference to one that took place in Germany or in Scotland and made it so Finnish?

Marja, Helsinki, Finland

'56 per cent gun ownership'

I am almost 40 years of age and I have already maged to get a couple of friends. None of them owns a gun.

It is not true that the gun ownership is 56%. It is true that there are a lot of registed guns in Finland, since all guns must be registerd, even those that no longer function and have only decorative walue. It also happens, that one person can own several guns. So in 56% of adult Finns do not own a gun - that is false information.

When interpreting statisticts, one should always be careful.

What comes to high divorce rates I personally tend to think that kids grow up much more sane, if their parents have the guts to divorce instead of keeping up appearances and fighting over evertyhting. Living in a marriage just 'because of the kids' sends wrong signals of what marriage and partnership should be

Jaana , Espoo, Finland

We do discuss about the terrible crime in Tuusula. Actually it’s just about the only thing we have been doing the last couple of days – besides mourning the loss of nine lives and the feeling of safety in our schools.

In every newspaper I read there are several pages of reports about the school shooting. When I open the radio there is a psychologist giving advice for parents of how to talk to your children about this terrible incident. In TV the politicians are talking about restricting our gun laws. People are demanding more money and resources for child psychiatry.

But that’s not the point. Let’s be honest: we don’t know what was going on in Pekka-Eric Auvinens head when he decided to take the gun to school and start shooting. And I dare say that neither do you, Mr Boyes. Maybe we all should let the police do their job first and blame the Finnish society afterwards, if necessary?

Anne, Espoo, Finland

It is necessary to discuss important issues but it is not fair to generalize so roughly after this kind of a tragedy.

We are stunned, devastated. If it was a "typical Finnish thing", we wouldn't, would we? You should've waited for a few days for us to get over this before writing what you wrote.

Finland is not a depressed country, I think people should use proper criticism when reading "facts" about Finland written by Finland-ignorant reporters on non-Finnish media (and I'm not talking about Mr. Boyes here, just generalizing, following the example set by The Times).

Emmi, Rautjärvi, Finland

Mr Boyes seems to take the easy way in trying to find a culprit for this tragedy. Long winters, unemployment, small towns, gun ownership. This is not an issue with Finns or the Finnish way of life, its an issue with western culture as a whole.

And in this piece again, dare i say a deliberate, falsifying of facts.
56% gun ownership. 56% of us dont own guns. Fewer people own guns but own more than one. Did it ever occur to you that hunting is popular in Finland? and Hunters own more than one weapon.

You would be best writing for News of the World. You have a good flair. But The Times, well after seeing the standard of reporting here, I wont be a returning reader.

Aleksi Ranta, Tampere, Finland

How naive and ignorant articles! This is now on top of my list
of gloomy articles on Finland written by Brits,so typical.

So you know Finland well by visiting there maybe few times?
You can not say to know any country for 30 years just by visiting
there. You know the country by living and working there and also speaking their language.

Finland is complex? Finland is easy, USA is complex. Let's put things in prospective. Tuusula is far away from Helsinki? In Finland nothing is really far away.Going places is easy, by trains, buses, metro etc.

yes, Finns are debating on this serious issue, and changes are made in law and fast, which shows how Finns care, and how things are moving quickly.

Mr. Boyles just shows his arrogance,ignorance or whatever jealousy towards Finns! yes, he is getting deeper in his hole.

Anni, Boston, USA

Mr, Boyes,

The way you see technology as a part of our lives is way too simple. Yes, technology has changesd our lives and social contacts, but it is not just for worse. I, for example, am constantly in contact with my real life friends trough the Internet. I have made plenty of new friends online, whom I also spend time in real life. And I also know people, who have had few friends and have been quite lonely, but who have made new friends and social contacts trough the Internet. Friends and social contacts that exists in the real life, even in the winter. Heck I even know married couples who have first met trough the Internet.

Internet is a way to find people who think alike. Unfortunately Auvinen happened to find other school shooters. It is ridiculous to think that technology has somehow distanced Finns from each other. For some it does that, but for others it is a way to bring people together and make new friends.

Topias, Lahti, Finland

Dear Mr. Boyes,

I still think you are drawing way too straightforward conclusions. Yes, we have a lot of divorces. Yes, we have a lot of single parents. Yes, we have some unemployment (situation has improved a lot since the 90's). And we have an extremely nasty weather, as you can see.

None of these "reasons" mentioned are applicable on this case. Well, the weather was not good even on Wednesday.

This boy came from an ideal stereotypic family, parents, two kids, house, probably a "familycar" on the front yard. Parents were working, mother involved in municipal politics and other activities and at least this older child was better than average in the school (and they are often bullied all around the World).

On what ground you can say, that this event is caused by those reasons you said that forms our complex society? As a single parent or in case of unemployment we do have the social security system to each and everyone. It is a complex society, but has it anything to with this?

-M

Maria, Turku, Finland

The problem is, the themes that you state you believe would be healthy to debate are not those bought up in your article and not those that people have reacted so strongly against. People are reacting against the very strong tone of xenophobia in the way you write about Finland and your article's basis in outdated national stereotypes.

"But it happened in Finland, didn’t it? Shouldn’t you ask why and not just leave the questioning to visiting foreigners?"

If you think Finns are not debating these matters as a result of this tragedy, then you clearly are not monitoring the Finnish press or television media very well. Almost all of the content is online, so you don't even need to be in Finland to see that.

James, St Albans,

Not quite sure what you expect will happen in Finland.. that people will mourn for a while and then the whole issue is forgotten? You can pull my wisdom teeth out if that happens. Luckily some of your facts are right but you still fail to mention the same thing that tens of people have said in the comments -section.. that most of the guns are for hunting purposes. Going on about the gun ownership is just your way of giving some extra color to your story which in my view is just pathetic.

I have lived in UK over 10 years and I do appreciate the fact that Brits are at ease when discussing the problems that face their country including gun ownership (according to BBC document it's easy for a 12yr old to buy a machine gun in London - try that in Tuusula!), teenage pregnancies etc. However, the discussion will happen in Finland too, and laws will be reviewed.

Thank you for the article, the way it united us was remarkable.

Rosa Thurman, Hyvinkaa , Finland

Wow, I can't believe you are still writing this stuff. Do you have any idea how patronizing you sound, and how insulting that feels to a country in grief?

You think that just by physically being in Tuusula you can judge exactly what is going on with the town's youth? You say that teens have a hard time there, as a general statement. Does it not occur to you why it may presently seem that way? Remember what happened on Wednesday?

You also suggest that Finns are in denial about the faults in our "Paradise on Earth". You say "Shouldn’t you ask why and not just leave the questioning to visiting foreigners?" Have you monitored the Finnish media lately? Have you actually TALKED to Finnish people about this? I guess you haven't, since if you would do so, you would notice that Finns are really looking into the mirror and doing that exact thing: wondering why, in stead of shifting the blame.

But I guess you know this country better than us, as you had your tooth removed here in 1976.

Mikko, Tuusula, Finland

Your article has a grain of truth, but I think you exaggerated. You gave very bad picture of Finns and it was the thing that made us angry. I would have been enough to tell the news, you didn't need to analyse the whole society like that.
Of course our country isn't paradise on earth and there are a lot of difficult things, but which country doesn't?
Don't you have troubled kids just like him? This could have happened anywhere.

Jasmina, Helsinki, Finland

Dear Roger,

As you are familiar with Finland, you naturally know that the number of polar bears in Finland is not very high. That is, they are not part of our natural wildlife and thus their number is 0.

And I assume that you also know that Finns and Finnish media are asking why. That was one of the first questions after the shootings, and will continue to be in the minds of most people here.

BR, mother of two teenagers in Southern Finland

Anna Martti, Helsinki, Finland

Dear mr Boyes,

I´m glad you wrote a response, but I still don´t agree with your "analysis". Even tough You have been in Finland and even in Tuusula, it doesn´t mean that you understand the Finnish society.

Do you speak Finnish? Do you understand the thousands and thousands of conversations about this crisis that are going on right now in real life and over the internet?

We Finns do speak. Maybe our way of communicating is a bit different than your way, but we do communicate. What do you think we do via media if not communicate? Or with all those Nokia phones?

This unbelievable thing that happened in Tuusula is making us to think hard what is wrong in our society that this kind of thing could happen. I do agree with you that it does expose a crack in the society and I´m not the only one in FInland that does thinks so.

What we don´t agree is your ignorant simplifications about our society and some of the reasoning in your "analysis". But as you see, we do talk.

Sara, Helsinki, Finland

It is possible that you know our country but you surely do not understand the people of it. If you did, you'd realise that there is time for grief and there will be time for a debate. You can be certain that there will be an endless discussion what went wrong and how to improve our society in the future to prevent this kind of tragedies from happening. But you can also be certain that many Finns will not highly appreciate a wiseguy Briton coming here to criticize our whole way of life less than a day after the horrible incident. Even if he/she has visited a dentist here.

Mikko, Turku, Finland

But it happened in Finland, didn’t it? Shouldn’t you ask why and not just leave the questioning to visiting foreigners?
---

Do you really think that we are not questioning?

Johanna, Germany,

Roger Boyes, You will have noticed that none of the 180 or so Finns who have commented on your article considered it smart, or clever. You may have noticed that many were offended that you should write of Finnish people and Finland so, at a time when many people are grieving for those affected by this terrible event. Since you are so familiar with Finalnd you will also know that most Finns are not so confident in their English to have posted a reply at all. I have spoken with many friends, (yes, I found them in spite of the poor visibility), and everyone I know considers your article to be at best, uninformed claptrap, and an indication of the ignorance of British people in general. Many people are offended, and I believe that an apology might be appropriate, unless, as your "explanation" above implies, that you are too arrogant or ignorant to do that.

Jim Oliver, Hameenlinna, Finland

What happened in Tuusula was horrible. And of course we, as Finnish society, have to think why this happened? What could have been done to prevent this? What can and should be done to prevent this from happening ever again? I believe this has it's roots in the last economic recession, which caused schools to be merged, larger amount of pupils per teatcher, parents loosing jobs, a decline in the wellfare system; especially the psychiatric care for children and teenagers was and still is negletted. People working with children and teenagers have been asking for more support for their work (and thereby to the kids), so far they have got little if nothing. Hopefully this tragedy will get some more funds directed for the benefit of children and teenagers.

For myself, I lived in the countryside, went alone to the schoolbus and back in darkness with a flashlight, listened to death metal, grew up seeing guns around, and still, I was a happy teenager with friends (even in the winter!) :)

katja m, helsinki, finland

Roger. When you're in a hole stop digging !

Phil, Dundee, UK

You now got totally wrong image of us Finns. We really try to keep peace in our country, no one could know that would happen,that´s why no one could stop it. Don´t think we WANTED this to happen. We are not terrorists for heavens sake! Try to understand Pekka-Eric Auvinen was very sad and he felt very bad,if he would have felt okay he would´nt have done this. But now it´s happened and we can´t do anything anymore... Let´s just pray for them who died that terrible day and wish it will never happen again anywhere,not in Finland, and nowhere. Please try to understand all Finns are´nt like him!!

Jessica , Espoo, Finland

You try to be clever, but to me you didn't succeed very well. Of course we ask ourselves why did this happen here and try to help depressed kids ect.
But the truth is that even thoug we might have a lot of guns here, GUN VIOLENCE is very rare. A lot of Finns hunt and that explains the guns.
There has been only one tragedy like this in Finland earlier, that was in the 80s when two people died. Don't try to make the whole country look bad just because one kid was messed up.
And what comes to Tuusula, I think people in there are perhaps even more happy that in the big cities. I live a couple hundred meters from Tuusula and been there many times and have lots friends from there. It's a beautiful and peacful town.

Maria, Kerava, Finland

Yes it needs debate, thank you for opening it. But your analysis was really naive. What makes this "a very Finnish affair?" It was the first incident of this kind in Finland, the models come from the USA, UK, Germany... How does it feel if somebody comes to tell you after a mass murder "it was very British, very British". We need to discuss what is wrong in our societies, why do things like this happen, what is the role of violent video games, changing social structures etc. But we must not stigmatize a nation.

Mark, Helsinki, Finland

Of course it should be talked about, and it is (trust me). As a Finn, I just don't think that blaming wintertime or the fact that there is only 17 of us per squarekilometer is the right perspective. There is nearly 6 million of us in Finland, and most of us have ways to cope with the darkness without going mad - long winters are something we have had to learn to live with since dawn of time. An 18-year-old man starting a mass murder in his school is most definitely not a typical Finnish affair.

Instead of some utter drivel about ancient mythology and a propostorous claim that "friendship is a summer luxury" I would have wanted to read some real and actually relevant thoughts about why the Finnish youth is not feeling well. It still wouldn't explain what happened in Jokela, but it would at least provoke real conversation instead of an angry mob.

Anniina Sohkanen, Bristol, UK

I come from a small town, I went to high school same size as Jokela high school. I know a lot more finns than you do, obviously, cause I live here.

I have lived in Germany as well. I know lot's of foreigners from all over the world. finns act differently when it comes to social situations, but that doesn't mean they don't feel and are not social. you cannot judge from behaviour, if you really don't know what is behind it.

"But it happened in Finland, didn’t it?"

It can happen anywhere, in Sweden, in Norway, in Britain. One mentally ill individual who admires Virginia high tech massacre and you think it is the result of our culture? And I have to say I don't know any other country pulling so hard together, when they consider they are being insulted or attacked.

congratulations by the way, you managed to upset the whole nation. Your timing was anything but good for your "analysis", you can not wonder why we are so upset.

Maria, Helsinki, Finland