I have been working in the AOR of RC North. The German contingent are the most un-productive Nation in Afghanistan. There are 2,500+ men at the camp and as already stated they just sit around smoking and drinking coffee. These guys and girls get the same NATO medal as the soldiers operating under fire on a daily basis.

Mark, Bristol, uk

Pheww - lucky the Russians tank divisions did not advance over those North German plains in the 60s. It was said they could reach the Med in 3 days and the new generation of Germans would have stood by. We had a very lucky break!

Peter Ellis, bordeaux, france

It strikes me that it took six years to realise that the German army in Afghanistan consists of cowards. The situation cannot be that bad, or your soldiers really are not the brightest.

I guess this could just be another attempt to lure Germany into a larger commitment in Afghanistan. No thanks, fight your wars yourself.

Fritz, London,

I have myself been stationed in Northern Afghanistan, relying on German medivac which couldn't fly after dark, in bad weather, without the proper customs clearance, without exact coordinates for the Landing Zone which by the way had to be a pre selected and recorded (not to mention mine cleared) area.

The article is 100% correct in that it portrays the reality for the Norwegian. Swedish. Finish. Danish, Romanian soldiers who are actually doing a very good and necessary job in Nrothern Afghanistan.

I can go on and on about the failure of the German mission and the support the are supposed to provide the troops within ISAF. The short version is however: Germany go home and let us be supported by a country who actually wants to do a good job supporting the soldiers who are improving the situation for the Afghan people.

Johan, Stockholm, Sweden

I have to agree with martin from Bristol. This is a very
thin artikle. It referes only to one single anonymous source.
There is no comments from Norwegian or German officials...

Olzen, North, Norway

If this is true, fair enough,something willhave to be done! But quoting 1 anomynous soldier as evididence is not quite considered to be proper journalism! especially because apart from the author of this article, nobody has filed a complaint. Not the norwegians, not the germans or anyone else involved! Interesting however, how little it takes to trigger such a response......

Martin , London, UK

"German mission command [...] denies the accusations. A spokesman there told SPIEGEL ONLINE on Sunday that of course German medevac helicopters can fly at night -- they are equipped to do so and they fly night missions regularly. The spokesman also said that there has been no complaint registered by the Norwegians about the alleged incident and said that occasionally helicopters can't fly because of the weather or due to sand storms.

"But then, it's not just us who can't fly. But everyone else too," the spokesman said.

And it's not just the Germans who question whether the incident happened the way it was portrayed by the Sunday Times. Lt. Col. John Inge Oeglaend, of the Norwegian Joint Headquarters, told SPIEGEL ONLINE that he has heard nothing concrete of the incident." [source:http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,518168,00.html]

Oeglaend also said, he ows much thanks to the Germans for their great hospitals, which saved several lives of Norwegians.

Greats

Matthias, Bochum, Germany

Nokizaru in Norway;

Your comment is an embarrassment to your country as well as to yourself. You'd be well advised to do a bit more reading and bit less writing in the future.

John Olsen, Oslo/Tokyo,

Martin from Spain said something like flying below freezing points in high altitude is extremely dangerous....

You probably never bin in an Heli before. The Norwegian army train under those conditions all the time. Even with 25-year old modified helis too, when the others are unavaible....

so to you... i can't imagine the conditions in Spain are anything like the norwegian (prove me wrong) so I think that tells us a lot about our two different army's...don't you?

Martin S., Oslo, Norway

Not surprisingly the Norwegian Government does NOT complain.

Rules of conduct of a modern army are also set by the 'supreme ruler', the people. And so "british army" and "german army" WILL behave differently.
Most people do understand this and are happy to receive aid at all. Other people try to 'encourage' a higher degree of involvement by slandering the party with the stricter rules.

Yes, Slander. Climatic reasons were pointed out. And there is another fact everybody seems to overlook: IF German Helicopters are to pull out at dusk, it would have been told to the Norwegians beforehand, so they could have adjusted their tactics (and own equipment) appropriately.
Surprise, surprise, there always will be hampering factors in in war.

Boils down to one question:
Is it better to have <insert democracy> around (with their rules, objections and Angst but also their help) or is it better to do the job valiantly alone?
With badly investigated articles such as this you strife for the latter.

Krischan, Berlin, Germany

Ask Germans to join the Army to fight? Really fight?
I'd say not!
They have had the lessons of 2 World Wars (which they won 0 - 2) to learn from. And after all, what is the point of having health and safety regulations if you do not take advantage of them.
I am still rolling on the ground, laughing my head off!!

What would Ludendorff have said !!!!!

David Michael, London, UK

Maybe it would have been a good idea to ask Norwegian officials before starting the bashing.

Usually it isn't the Times that tries to increase circulation by creative and inventive journalism.

Kai Frederking, Hamburg, Germany

Never mind the taleban, what we really should do when in Afghanistan is to kill off the poppy fields providing 90% of the worlds heroin.

Then there would be no more money for buying weapons, and general availability of this poison would save countless lives.

In Oslo, with its heroin-zombies endlessly stumbling around, not a single word can be heard from our great leaders about actually doing something useful in Afghanistan. They never see the misery and death up close.

Im confident that the US, with a chemical industry we remember for Agent Orange and Bhopal, are more than able to cook
up something to spray the poppyfields with.

oleb, oslo,

let's call it a day.

Franz Müller, Bibersbach, Germany

I refer to Jean, Paris, France below.
What a pathetic comment. How do you suggest we let the "real democratic Afghans" prosper, without dealing first with the small problem of the fanatic, warmongering Taleban hell-bent on not only returning Afghanistan to the stone-age (it is not far from there now), but also training and aiding terrorist networks to launch attacks on the West. I don't think you actually suggest any way of dealing with the Taleban, but I can assure you that diplomacy is not something they respond particularly well to.

Jamie, London, UK

Sturle, Oslo

don't you give it a minute to think this might just be German bashing. Nothing is proved yet and the commanders office for this particular helicopter group have stated in an article in Die Welt, that there is not only not a Norwegian complaint but a thank you note for particular good assistance. Our British friends are constantly in competition with Germany and the Germans and maybe they find it unacceptable that the German soldiers are warmer welcomed by the Afghan population than the British troops who have a history in the area.
I recommend the book by John Ramsden, Don' mention the war.
You may recall this is the punch line from Monty Pyton the world champion in the competition called German bashing.
But Mr. Ramsden goes far beyond that and gives a fair view of the scene from 1890 to 2000.
Heinz Koenig

Heinz Koenig, Bremen, Germany

Is the "ja" at the end of the headline intended to turn it into a question? Or is it supposed to make it even more German? I wouldn't have picked up on it otherwise - very clever.

Classy, very classy. Always helping to bring unity to Europe. Draw a line, leave the EU.

Dieter Sprocket, New York, NY

Murph, you asked:
"Are you guys serious? Does the German military really go to war hamstringed by vehicle emission rules? You have got to be kidding me!! Please tell me you're joking!"

The answer is: No, not kidding.

The Germans take all their German laws, regulations and ordinances with them to foreign places, including StVO (e: road traffic regulations). This includes, that all vehicles are to decommission, that violate the strict Germen emission rules (AU Abgasuntersuchung). 18 armored Mercedes G-wagons (Wolf) have been decommission according to that emission rules until a member of the technical inspection authority (TÃœV) was flown in again and measured the emission again. Up to that teh peronal was not allowed to use the vehicles and had to stay in the base or use unarmored vehicles. Can see it at the German armyforum sondereinheiten.de.

The rules are so strict, that 70 Percent of the army personal do not leave the bases Masar I Sharif and Kunduz during their whole deployment.

Christian, Hamburg, Germany

Does anyone know why European troops are in Afghanistan and why are the trying to fight the locals in the dark?.

Kostas Papadopoulos, Athens,

If this incident happened the way it is described above, then why are the Norwegian Headquarters denying it?

Have a look at this: http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,518168,00.html

Tom , Munich,

Just to add a few facts to a strange discussion:
It's good to see that people are taking such harsh accusations seriously, but that's all they are.
1) Of course the helicopters can and are allowed to fly at night. Any other information is simply wrong.
2) If they return, it is due to adverse weather conditions.
3) The Norwegians never complained, something you might expect if it were true. On the contrary, the Norwegian defence research institute thanks Germany for its help and has never heard of such accusations.
4) Lieutenant Colonel John Inge Øglænd of the Norwegian Army states that it was known and agreed upon that the helicopters were to fly back. He cannot understand how the information came about.
See http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,518135,00.html
This leaves the question, why does the British press need to humiliate others? No self-respect left?
It certaintly won't help to win allies or this war.

Henning, Giessen, Germany

Excerpt from an interview by Spiegel-Online with norwegian Lieutenant Colonel John IngeØglænd:

"I don't know the details concerning the actual events, but it is fact that the operation that the Times is referring to had never been canceled abruptly. I can't understand why the norwegian soldier came to this appraisal. The distraction of the german helicopters was never a surprise to us. Norwegian officials know about the german restrictions."

"Whenever norwegian troops needed aid from their german allies in the past they got it. We are aware of the fact that Germany, providing over 3000 soldiers, all the equipment and all the know-how, plays a crucial part in this mission. The whole operation in the north of Afghanistan would be very difficult without the great work of the german troops. Even the german hospital in Masar-i-Sharif is better equipped than some norwegian hospitals at home. There are absolutely no conflicts between german and norwegian troops in Afghanistan...

Jochen Lukas, Kassel, Germany

...Far from it! - that has been confirmed by norwegian officials working together with them."

Well, that sounds quite different to the stuff that is posted here. Just don't forget that Britains, Americans and Canadians want to force Germany to send troops to the south of Aghanistan and the media is happily joining in with their rant.
As long as it is conerning that and Germany even the most acclaimed british tabloids (or norwegian commentators) can't help but to become the typical, polemical Germany bashers.

Jochen Lukas, Kassel, Germany

Yupp, this article hits it right on the top of the nail. After 13 months in Afghanistan, all I've ever seen of the germans are on their way in and out of their beer-halls and nightclubs. But they use a lot of time making their camps nice though...

But what can one expect when they have all these silly rules and regulations. As an example, the german helos fly under peace-time regulations. And then of course it's important to get home by supper... Go figure...

Kurt, Norway,

Well done Norway, you have always had good and brave soldiers, sod the weather, british soldiers still train in Telemark so that we can fight under the same conditions as you are brought up with.
Good luck to the Danes, Norwegians, and Brits at the front line in Afghanistan. Sorry! almost forgot the Yanks who are also doing a great job.

Nick , silkeborg , Denmark

Please get informed properly before joining the weekly German bashing parade. There is no regulation forbidding German air forces to fly at night. There is a policy to keep them within the reach of military hospitals - I am sure a lot of soldiers' families are grateful for that. Media coverage like this may be perceived as building up pressure to drag German forces deeper into an unresolvable conflict, putting more lives at risk pointlessly. Please always reflect on possible political intentions before taking a news item as factual.

Benjamin Ducke, Berlin, Germany

The most important sentence here is "But its men are not allowed to...". The men on the ground are most certainly not very happy that they are not allowed to help their Nato colleagues. - Hardly a very fair (or well reserched ) article. (Beer halls and nightclubs where they spend a lot of time?! ... oh, come of it)
I guess it makes a good headline though.
Better write about the reasons the german goverment sends troops to Afghanstan without giving them clear orders, because it fears the puplic reaction following the loss of lives.

G. Bunger, Berlin , Germany

The Afghan War is very unpopular in Germany and not approved by the majority of the German ppl. So why should our soldiers die for american goals ? This isn´t our war.It is indeed not our problem that other nations are dumb enough to fight in a lost war.By the way the Afghans were our former allies and we never had any problems with them.
As for the headline, think we´re are the germans you wanted us to be after the lost war.Peacefull people drinking beer in beerhalls.Either way we´re do it wrong.

OswaldSpengler, Berlin , Germany

It is really worse and shaming ...

... that the British press again and again tries to undermine British/German relations.

The best would be not to be involved in that war, where US and British politicians try to find idiotes who help them in their imperialistic crimes.

Another matter is the myth that Germany rules the EC. If you think that Germany rules the EC, why don`t you leave it?

Gerhard Huebenett, Leidersbach, Germany

It is a hiúge problem and Worth shaming! but the Bundeswehr is simply not alloed by the constitution to fight in the south of Afganistan! thats ofcource not justifying that they just leave the battlefield when it goes dark!

Gregor, Frankfurt, Germany

Alright. Let the Brits, Norwegians, etc. take over. It won't change the situation but it will save German tax payers money. Hooray!
Germans out of Afghanistan and the War on Terror will finally be won! Good thinking. Let's all have a nice-cuppa-tea and sit back and watch the Brits do their job better than the rest of the world (see Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.). It's a shame, though, that Norwegians are misused for this propaganda.

Henning, Giessen, Germany

I am right with the warmongers. You Guys dont like it but it is the truth.
Cowards

Mueller, Soton,

It is meaningless to use special Norwegian forces whom are specialist in winter warfare and especially trained in an environment which is basically without proper daylight 6 months a year if they are not ment to fight fully supported "after hours"!

The question that must go to the tactical commanders is if they really know what resources they have at hand at all time,,,also at night time?

Arild, Bergen, Norway

Re Don and his comment:
I am also a German living in the UK (actually for 15 years now !), and contrary to Don I am getting tired of headlines mocking everything German (there are some of us without the accent !), especially when it is a well-respected paper such as The Times.
But as long as the BBC keeps endlessly repeating 'Allo'Allo, what do we expect ?

Thomas, Nottingham,

As a German living in the UK, I feel ashamed of the uneducated comments of my countrymen below. Unfortunately several Germans like to generalise and cannot separate between "German-bashing" of the Yellow Press and serious articles of the Times.

Steven, that's exactly the point. But as the German government decided to send troops to Afghanistan, they should let them do the same job like the British, Norwegians etc., shouldn't they?

Don Profondo, London, UK

Hilarious....

Ze Germans are so funny. A total fall from grace, and military tradition as well... Just one month with the Totenkopf Division in Afghanistan, and the Taleban would have been annihilated and wiped off the map completely! But the times they are a' changing, no?

Go get yourself a soda pop, will you Herman...

Nokizaru, Loeten, NORWAY

Norwegian helicopter pilots fly in below zero conditions all the time and ocfourse by night, the norwegian pilots do not understand their german allied pilot comrades on this point. Our sect defense have now orderes norwegian helis to the area so atleast we can fight the taliban now on better terms.

S.Braathen, Oslo, Norway

Norway will not file any official complaint. We will just deploy our own helicopters. They should be operative in the beginning of next year (march/april). They will be manned by pilots who do not have to ask mom to stay out after dark, or get Angst if they are more than 2 hours flight away from the nearest Bierhalle.

Sturle, Oslo, Norway

What is the point participating in another US war for control and hegemony? The war in Afghanistan was senseless already when it started. It is not less senseless now. Get the troops out of this country. Help real democratic afghans moving the country forward for and by ordinary people, not warlords and puppet regimes. The current "democrazy" on behalf of the world sheriff and international finance is just another bluff.

Jean, Paris, France

The Norwegian Parliament has decided to send three helicopters to Afghanistan, Mars 1. th - 08, in order to get better support of the ground troops.

And Martin, in Madrid: Our helicopters flyes all year round, no matter the temperature. When you live on the north pole, you defend on the north pole.

Who cares about the temperature?

Junior, Oslo, Norway

Muultinational forces should have extra strict rules for collaboration. It is criminal to withdraw your aid from units you are supposed to support and which continue fighting even after five-a-clock tea breaks. If some country´s basic law or statutes do not allow it to participate in such affairs the country should keep out.
Quite an other question is whether there is any point for Western countries to mix at all in Afghan disputes.
Timm, Tampere, Finland

Timm, Tampere, Finland

Martin from spain said: "Fighting in snow covered mountains under these conditions normally also ends for the night anyhow."

This is propably true for the spanish army, but in Norway, the combination of snow and night is not an obstacle for fighting. It's what we train for every day and should rather be considered an advantage..

truls, oslo, Norway

There was an interesting story in the Swiss press about two months ago. Apparently, the Swiss government was peeved because - without Swiss permission - German secret services had met with the Taliban in Berne to discuss relations with a possible future Taliban government.. This kind of Realpolitik might explain Germany's half-hearted contribution.

S. Harvey, Lausanne, Switzerland

Are you guys serious? Does the German military really go to war hamstringed by vehicle emission rules? You have got to be kidding me!! Please tell me you're joking!

If not then I'm going to support any candidate or proposal over here to pull the hell out of NATO. When modern warfare depends on speed and movement via fossil fueled vehicles and aircraft.
I don't want to be counting on "allies" that aren't allowed to run their engines more than a few hours a day!

I love the enviroment, but If thats true..that has to be the most ridiculous restriction I've ever heard!!!!

Murph, Madisonville , USA/KY

I very much appreciate the fair and informed comments by some of the British authors. Especially pointing out that there is no evidence so far. Should all of this have happened to the detriment of our allies, the German press would be the first to report ,as this would be welcomed ammunition to bring back the German contingency. So why this article? just read the headline. Have you ever seen a headline on a French report like : foar ous the woar iis over, no? I guess the only purpose of the article is to fill another piece into the mosaic of the normal German bashing. You friendly German writers should read, Ridley, Burchill and most off all A.A. Gill before falling into the trap of the Brits.
Heinz

Heinz Koenig, Bremen, Germany

Germany should get out of the Middle East. Apparently we're doing too much for Islamist Psychos and not enough for Anglosphere Psychos. And what's in it for us? Nothing, except the pleasure of being allowed on a foreign battlefield again.

Max, Dortmund, Germany

The German Bundeswehr is not allowed to be in Afgahnistan at all. It is an illegal mission.
Have a look at the German Grundgesetz ("Basic Law", a document that has the status of a consitution - you'll find it online.)
For your convenience, I quote the relevant bits here:
----------
Article 87 a
[Establishment and powers of the Armed Forces]
(1) The Federation shall establish Armed Forces for purposes of defense. Their numerical strength and general organizational structure must be shown in the budget.
(2) Apart from defense, the Armed Forces may be employed only to the extent expressly permitted by this Basic Law.
----------
In that Basic Law, there is no other possible employment expressly permitted. Besides the fact that the Government and the army have little backing within the German people for this mission, current German law expressly forbids the German troops to be there.

Steven Poggel, London, UK

There has been no official complaint from the Norwegian side yet. Seems a bit like fuelling the ongoing attempt to get Germany to provide more troops.

Steph, Halle, Germany

Well, when you consider the Brits and the US pilots keep dropping out of the sky ... maybe the Germans have a point. Well-rested pilots and all that?

starling, Lancaster,

I don't know much about technical diffuculties when flying helicopters at night under specific natural circumstances like in Afghanistan but when military forces don't really do what they are suppost to do then I think there is a serious question to be asked if these military forces should really be involved in any war-like situation at all.
Either let them do their job or take them out of there now.

Jens Esser, Rodgau, Germany

While reading this article please keep in mind, that there is a political campaign going on to convince the German government to send their soldiers in the south of Afghanistan, outside their field of operation.
This is not only opposed by a vast majority in parliament but also by the German citizens. Our current government has limited operations outside the north of Afghanistan to emergency support only.

Reacting to ongoing criticism of limitations of the German mandate, Germany sent REECE Tornado's for reconnaissance missions. Their field of operation is not limited.

Roland, Munich, Germany

Afghanistan doesn't need any foreign interference. They got rid of Brits, Russians and other invaders. There is no need to thrust our "moral" values upon them. Remember: The present government doesn' t even have control of Kabul suburbs. No one prevents Western nations to give a helping hand, but NATO has nothing to do there. Get out of the place as quick as you can. Vive l'Afghanistan libre.

claude, munich, germany

Tell them to go home and not come out again until they learn to support their allies instead of putting lives at risk. I do feel for the soldiers on the ground - I'm sure they do feel guilty at follow these rules ...

Just imagine if industry ran like this - we'd be bankrupt in days.

I hope the burocrats are ashamed of themselves.

Mike, Leeds, UK

Each German soldier is fully aware that he shall not endanger the environment, especially the Afghan atmospere.The pilots were told that after sundown the ozone shield is much more endangered by their emissions than during daytime. This is the result of complicated chemical processes on which the German soldiers get instructed before they leave to Afghanistan. This aspect is completely new for a German soldier, the Wehrmacht wasn't aware of it.

Stolpa, Cologne, Germany

This article lacks evidence. To quote one Norwegian soldier and provide no other sources seems to be weak. To my knowledge no government complained to the German government so far, which would be the appropriate manner.

Martin, Bristol,

If you look for the perfect soldier I always thought it was good twist in history that you do not find them in Germany anymore. Our soldiers are no longer blind warriors and for the first time in 50 Years they are fighting outside our country. The “restrictive rules of engagement „ are part of this and a lot of this rules are in place to make sure that our soldiers do not repeat history. If there are concerns about the way they are doing there job, I think there must be a way to deal with this between the different forces in Afghanistan.
And for the “Sunday Times”: Jokes about the German accent are quite funny. At least our soldiers learned English at school at are not afraid to use it.

Robert Klings, Manchester, Ger/UK

It is not easy to understand that, but the German Bundeswehr is ordered to behave like that. The orders forbid anything that has a risk or could be seen as aggressive. Local warlords are paid to secure the camps, so that nothing occurs that involves the Germans.

It is not because of the soldiers, who are not more or less brave or cowardice than those of any western nation. It's also not - in the first sight - the fear about fallen German soldiers. It's mainly because the German public media fears more than anything else that the Germans could kill an enemy on other reasons than self-defense. They learned that pacifistic moral for 60 years.

Also, the bureaucracy is immense. Because of that the soldiers sit in their camps and control the vehicle-emissions according to German rules, separate their waste (which is completely flown back to Germany with the transall-plane), or drink beer (which is allowed in the German army).

Christian, Hamburg, Germany

This is really worse and shaming.

daniel, berlin, germany

As if this was any surprise?

This is how an EU-army will look like. Showing the falg, but not fighting. Almost like the Italian Navy during WWII.

John, Barcelona, Spain

Ummmm, flying helicopters at very high altitudes at temperatures significantly below freezing point is indeed extremly dangerous and would normally never be approved unless there are already critically wounded men to be evacuated. Not by a British nor by a Norwegian command, not by Spaniards nor apparently by Germans.

Fighting in snow covered mountains under these conditions normally also ends for the night anyhow.

This looks like a bad spin to a standard situation to me.

Martin, Madrid, Spain

Fighting a war by union and H&S rules. Where's the Monty Python gang when you really need them?

Andrew Milner, Karuizawa, Japan Alps