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From The Times
December 22, 2007
La dolce vita turns sour as Italy faces up to being old and poor
The Christmas fair on Piazza Navona in the heart of Rome looks as cheerful as ever: glittering decorations, funfair booths and roasting chestnuts. In St Peter’s Square the giant Christmas tree is lit, and the streets are full of visitors soaking up the festive version of la dolce vita.
The markets in the residential districts tell a different story. The lights are bright but the mood is sombre. “I’m buying fewer presents this year, and cheaper ones,” said a woman fingering fur hats at a stall near the Vatican. “And as for food . . .”
There is a sense of national angst in Italy as 2007 comes to a close. A defining moment came this week when, for the first time, Spain overtook Italy in terms of living standards. Greece is now breathing down Italy’s neck.
The self-lacerating mood goes far beyond prices and incomes, reaching into the heart of Italy’s debate with itself over soul and identity. Italians are ruling significant parts of the world: Fabio Capello has taken charge of the England football team and Carla Bruni has conquered the heart of the French President.
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Yet, at home, Italians are consumed with a sense of domestic decline. “When an entire country goes into crisis over the ‘who are we and where are we going’ debate, it means we are reaching new heights of hysteria,” the writer Umberto Eco said. “This explosion of provincialism is truly painful. Personally I feel depressed.”
So do many of his fellow countrymen. There is a sense that while the past is Italy’s glory, it is also its prison, with politics and business dominated by a gerontocracy and the younger entrepreneurs and politicians held back.
When Romano Prodi, the centre-left Prime Minister, held a summit in Rome this week with Nicolas Sarkozy of France and José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero of Spain, commentators noted that while Mr Zapatero was 47 and Mr Sarkozy a bouncy 52, Mr Prodi was a weary-looking 68. In the wings, plotting his comeback, is the centre-right leader and media tycoon Silvio Berlusconi, aged 71.
“The problem is that the leaders of our governing class are greybeards whereas, say, Spain’s are practically kids,” says Michele Salvati, a leading economist. At this year’s Miss Italia beauty contest, the contestants were all in their teens while the average age of the judges — who made headlines by arguing over whether a girl’s bottom should be judged part of her charm — was 70.
Even the arts are struggling: although there are fine Italian film directors, there is none to match Fellini or Visconti, and Monica Bellucci, for all her beauty, is no Sophia Loren (in any case she lives in Paris).
When Larry Gagosian, the dynamic American art dealer, opened a new modern art gallery in Rome last week, some critics accused him of making money instead of praising an attempt to put Rome at the cutting edge of contemporary art.
Vincenzo Cremonini, 44, who has expanded his meat-producing business at Módena to include railway and motorway catering — including the new Eurostar service from St Pancras — identifies three other factors holding Italy back: bureaucracy, the slow judicial system, which is used by protesters to hold up modernising initiatives such as the Turin to Lyons high-speed railway, and the “selfperpetuating political elite”.
A book on Italy’s cocooned elite, La Casta (The Caste), a runaway bestseller this year, pointed out that Italy had the highest number of official chauffeur-driven cars in Europe, and that the presidential palace, the Quirinal, cost four times as much to run as Buckingham Palace.
A “jobs for life” mentality prevails, with jobs allocated not on merit but through a network of mutual favours and family ties known as raccomandazione. Some younger Italians are prepared to take short-term contracts, which is part of the Prodi Government’s modernisation programme, but Italy’s powerful trades unions have mobilised millions of protesters against what they call “precarious labour”. Last month hospitals closed for a day over short-term contracts, and this month lorry drivers brought the economy grinding to a halt with a three-day strike.
The workforce at Alitalia, itself a symbol of the Italian malaise, is threatening a Christmas strike over the proposed sale of the troubled national airline to Air France-KLM. Even La Scala opera house in Milan is disrupted regularly by industral unrest. “Italy needs a Margaret Thatcher,” Francesco Caltagirone, one of Italy’s top entrepreneurs, said yesterday. “We need rigour and deregulation, a leader who will force Italians to make sacrifices.”
Even the Italian nuclear family, once the bulwark (along with the Catholic Church) of Italian society, is in decline, with growing divorce rates, a low birthrate and the rise of single parenthood. The family still provides a haven for young Italians, many of whom live at home until they are 30 — but this, too, holds Italy back, as those who should be carving a niche for themselves opt instead for Mamma’s cooking and laundry services. Many do so because they cannot afford to make their own way.
Confesercenti, the traders’ association, says that sales this year of clothing and electrical goods are down 15 per cent, and perfume sales down 10 per cent. Yesterday Coldiretti, the farmers’ union, announced that even sales of pasta were down 4 per cent and bread by 7 per cent.
“A lot of families find it difficult to reach the end of the month,” Mr Cremonini says. “We call it the fourth-week syndrome.”
Eleven per cent of Italian families live under the poverty line, and the middle class is feeling the pinch too. This week Mr Prodi’s wife, Flavia, had to intervene when a well-dressed woman in a fur coat accosted her husband outside Palazzo Chigi, the Prime Minister’s residence, accusing him of “ruining us all”.
One key reason for Italy’s woes is rising energy costs. Another is the strength of the euro against the dollar. Even the luxury sector, for which Italy is renowned with names such as Gucci, Armani and Versace, is feeling the squeeze as orders drop. Globalisation and cheap competition from Asia are undermining traditional exports such as textiles.
The last straw for many was the news that Spain had overtaken them in terms of GDP per capita. According to the European Union statistics office, Eurostat, Spain’s GDP per capita climbed to 5 per cent above the 27-member EU average last year, from 3 per cent above the previous year.
Italy moved in the opposite direction, with the figure falling to 3 per cent above from 5 per cent. Spain already has its sights on the next goal. Mr Zapatero, welcoming the news, added that the country must match the economy of France.
Italy, says Luca Cordero di Montezemolo, the head of Fiat and the employers’ federation Confindustria, “has not only come to a halt, it is going backwards. The problem is not only that we lack investment in research and development, it is also that every Italian looks out for himself, not for the common good.”
The result is that Italians are the least happy people in Europe, according to a poll conducted for the University of Cambridge by Luisa Corrado, of the University of Rome. Danes turned out to be the happiest. Tellingly, in Denmark 64 per cent said that they trusted their parliament. In Italy it was only 36 per cent.
Many older Italians remember much harder times: the historian Giampaolo Pansa, 72, says that “everyone says they are poor nowadays, but I remember my grandmother stealing food from the fields to feed us. The other day a builder came to our house. He said he’d never known such hard times — and then pulled out the latest-generation mobile phone.”
After the Second World War, millions of Italians emigrated in search of a better life. The movement is now the other way, with nearly four million immigrants in Italy. “The problem is that a country like Spain sees immigrants as useful workers, whereas in Italy the headlines tell us they are all criminals who go round robbing and stabbing Italians,” Carlo Bastasin, an economist, said.
Italian-Spanish rivalry is a needle match, and some Italians fear that their country’s decline, and the rise of Spain, means that Madrid will carry more weight than Rome around the world. Ronald Spogli, the US Ambassador to Rome, gave warning this week that Italy “risks a diminished international role” as well as slipping down the list of American global business partners.
“America’s best friends are its business partners,” he observed, noting that US investment in Italy was about $17 billion (£8.5 billion), while in Spain it was nearly $50 billion.
There is hope amid the encircling gloom. In Sicily the crippling power of the Mafia is finally being tackled by businessmen — almost all in their forties, with European experience — who risk their lives by refusing to pay protection money.
Italy, says Walter Veltroni, the Mayor of Rome and a likely future centre-left Prime Minister, can and must overcome its “do-nothing demon”. Italian bureaucracy is “an elephant sitting on top of Italy and holding it back”, he said. “We must lose our fear of the new.”
“There is more to Italy than pizza and spaghetti,” says Mr Montezemolo, who — according to rumours — may enter politics when his Confindustria mandate expires next year.
“We are a country full of excellence and positive energy. We can reverse this decline — if we open up the country, embrace the market, get rid of the red tape, and release the talents of the young.”
Trying times
— 0% population growth rate
— 42.5 median age, compared with 38.5 in Britain
— one in five Italians is over 65
— 1.29 children born per woman. 2.1 needed to maintain population
— 120 days lost each year to strike action per 1,000 employees from 2001 to 2005, compared with 26 in Britain
— 20th place on Human Development Index, the UN measure of factors such as education, wealth and life expectancy, four places below Britain and seven below Spain. Italy dropped three places in the past year
— 7% unemployment rate, higher than 76 countries, including Romania, Nigeria, Cambodia and Ukraine
— 106% public debt as proportion of GDP, the sixth-highest in the world, higher than Zimbabwe
Sources: UN, CIA, National Statistics
I am not sure, but perhaps northern Italy is doing well but is statistically bogged down by the south?
Matt, Toronto, Canada
I'm glad to hear so many Italians and Non-Italians speaking of the crisis in Italy.At least someone is aware this is a serious crisis and not just a soccer game! I'm sorry if I'going to break some non-italian's dreams but Italy is far more different from the happy and sunny country of the sixties-seventies.There are no Vespa's and no Vita is still Dolce any more.I think Italy is paying the price of the anomalous economic revolution of the 60's. In fact, while GB,France,Germany and Spain managed to restructure their economy and burocracy, Italy remained still, living in a sort of wealthy-limbo.Everyone noticed new streets,buildings,ecc.. but no one noticed the huge debt contracted to finance those streets and buildings.Now the dream is finished.And everyone is paying the inactivity of those times.Every Italian always knew that Naples had problem with rubbish,that Alitalia employed parents of politicians paying them high wages,ecc..but no one said nothing. Now Italy really needs a shock.
Gabriele, Milan, Italy
Italy is like a sinking ship. The only thing I can say is "Si salvi chi può!!"(Save yourself if you can!)
Gabriele, Milan, Italy
I find the heart- centered culture of the Italians refreshing.. as opposed to the head-centered and goal driven American dreams. The family centered culture of Italy embraces ME as well, when I for example travel by train. if one speak the language, one feels embraced in many kindnesses in the course of every day. To see old people walking and socializing in the piazzas is very humanizing, and the lack of a significant presence of transnational names.. McDonald's and Starbucks, but rather small mom and pops as well. there is a sense of genuineness and innocence among the Italians.. as one notices the antics of a usually very well behaved Italian child on the train, looks of kindness and tolerance are exchanged. If Italy were growing at the same rate economically as some other countries perhaps it would be because they had embraced the material centered culture of the Western world. out with the politicians but keep what's precious and unique Italia!
susan Walenza, Portland, oregon, usa
I just moved to Italy and as I was introduced to family friends one lady seriously asked when I was going to become a real Italian. I think this says it all. Any interest in other cultures out there?
AE, Brescia, Italy
The Italian people have the politicians they deserve. The general lack of interest for innovation, change of mentality, and the obsessive familism, expecially in Souther regions, where ignorance is rampant and the few intelligent and skilled people escape away, has made the current political class dominant.
Basicly we, the honest Italians, are ruled by robbers, mafia bosses, and corrupted politicians, just like 3rd world countries...
From my point of view, the only way to change things quickly is an armed revolution, or asking the US to invade us. In the meantime, I'm organizing my moving to another european country...
Tom, Catania,
The only part of Italy worth saving is Venice. I sincerely hope Venice is not sinking (literally) as fast as Italy (figuratively). Duh?
My comment about Italy sinking faster than Venice was an ALLEGORY for those people who do not seem to understand such concepts. It was a joke, just like Italy is becoming.
It really is too bad about the situation in Italy. I am not trying to make matters worse; I just regret that this lovely country cannot hold itself up to the EU standards.
I live in the USA but my home is in one of the more successful EU countries.
Hilkka Zirkle, Tucson AZ, USA
Poor, poor my country!
Sometimes, I would like to open my bedroom's window and scream my sadness out.
We have been lazy and self-indulgent. We did not check carefully what our politicians were doing and, even more important, NOT doing.
Now it is late. Italy is doomed.
I have always studied hard, I took on my responsibilities, and finally I got my degree in Chinese. I can speak five languages and, having spent a lot of time in China, I thought my humble contribution could be useful to my country, but finding a serious job opportunity has been totally impossibile.
In this situation, I find myself compelled to try to move abroad and say farewell to my homeland forever.
It can't be real, it looks like a nightmare...
Marco, Tivoli, Italy
Italy can one day be a great country, but it is going to take a lot of pain and hard work to get there. Italy has benefitted enormously from EU subsidies and tariffs and so has never had to compete in the real world. Italy must face up to the fact that change is constant and they must change to be relevant in the world today. Australia suffered from those subsidies and tariffs by the EU and then by the US in retaliation. Now we have a boom in Australia because the developing countries want our minerals, also our education and service industry in general. We no longer rely on our farming sector for the wealth of the country. We took our medicine for many years and now the reforms to our economy are paying huge dividends. Australia is booming. While you may not care about Australia, I have only used this as an example. Italy can turn things around but without real reform this is not going to happen. No more relying on handouts from the EU, just get on and do it yourselves.
Grant, Brisbane, Australia
for Tom,San Rafael, CA:
prices are hugely high for us (native people) too: since "lira" was replaced by "euro", prices have been risen by 50%! Add that the current $/€ exchange is not very reasonable for tourists...so no wonder you thought prices were abnormal: actually they are!
Giovanni, Sicilia, Italy
We love Italy. We just returned from our 5th trip there.
In terms of economic development, one thing that stood out is the relative scarcity of internet connections. Another is the exorbitantly high prices...which do not seem to affect the enormous crowds of tourists. Somebody is making a LOT of money off the tourists, but I guess it isn't trickling down very far. The US has a vastly more dynamic economy, yet things are vastly more expensive in Italy...at least for tourists. In the US, we don't jack up prices 100% for tourists. Economically speaking, something is seriously out of whack in Italy, that's for sure.
Tom, San Rafael, CA
New is not always better, or even good.
eugene, heidelberg, germany
We are fed up! Our politician don't care about us,they just care of themself, but they keep seing " Italy doesn't have so many problem", our economy is growing.....!
Well it's just a lie.
I 'm 33 years old and I don't see anything good for my future, so all my friends.
I live with my parents,not because I want so , It's just because I can't afford to rent a place on my own,I' m forced
to live in my parents house.
I hate italian politician .
We (normal citizen) wish that something good will come , otherwise it will be harder and harder for us.
What shall we do?The Rivoluzione??? Or civil war?
I hope not....
Happy new year(happy????)
Mauro G., Chieti , Italy
As a frequently travelled Scottish engineer who worked in Lombardia region for 6 months last year, I cannot identify with the caricature.
I found most people spoke acceptable English and certainly not a detriment to conducting business , their Engineers knowledgeable and resourceful , and the infrastructure was as good I have seen anywhere in Europe.
There were more state of the art manufacturing and industrial companies in that region than I've witnesses anywhere in the UK , exporting advanced products from microchips to advanced medical equipment ( show me an advance microchip plant in the UK).
The Italians I found to be friendly and courteous , their cities old, safe and beautiful, and the countryside stunning.
My main critical observation, is that the Italians ( as we Scots do) suffer from the self deprecating decease of believing the criticisms other confer. For that I blame socialism, perhaps the entrepreneur was correct that Italy needs an Italian
M. Thatch
Eric, Brussels, Belgium
Francesco,
of course I am not proud of our politicians. But who elected them? I am not so naive to quote all the magnificence of the past to assert the pride of being Italians. It would be too easy but it would take to nowhere. What I think is that we should stop moaning and we must start tuck up our sleeves for a better future. It is above all up to us, not to our (ineffective) politicians. There is no point in keeping on complaining.
antonella, verona, italy
Everything in the article is sadly true.
I've been leaving in Switzerland, UK and Nederland for years and now I'm back to Italy. The difference is real. Honest people lost their trust in institution. Dishonest people rule the country. The mood is bad and the hope in the future is lowering. Also because nobody can see a way for a change since we have the most incompetent, greedy, inept and slimy politics and top manager in the world.
If it wasn't for my relatives and friends, the the love I feel for my native land (and the breathtaking beauty of the country and his part of good people) I and my family we'll be already again on our way to a foreign country.
Gianni, Bologna, Italy
http://www.ilquiquiri.com/ THIS IS MY REGION ( CAMPANIA ) NOW!!! Please have a look !!!
Marco, Pompei, Italy
Wake up, Italians!!!! Just forget your petty interests once, for the good of everyone! It's the only way to have a future. politics and business are just a reflection of a people's values and way of living. I hope that a worsening situation will push the Italians to raise their heads and say "we have to change!". I definitely hope so.
Daniele, Milan, Italy
Italy world champion,
Ferrari world champion
Ducati world champion
Italy exports more than england, (spain x 3)
Eni, enel, unicredit, generali are leaders...
Italy GDP 2006 = 1852 MUSD
Spain gdp 2006 = 1 231 MUSD
Italy products goods when english economy is virtual...
vinny, rome, italy
Italian one here ... not so happy but not so scared about all.
Any French, English,Spanish, German, European or American here who is really happy about government decisions?
Let me know pls
Bruno, Ivrea, Italy
I totally agree...
I left Italy in march and now i'm living in Mexico
Italy is the most beautiful country in the world, but there's non hope, no future for us, honest people, in our country..
I'll come back to italy only as a turist
E.B.
bigchicco, Alamos,
totally agree Italy it's over as a Nation or an entity in the world.
thank to ourserlves we allowed few people to destroy one of the best country in the world.
Those people became more rich, gain continously power making all the population poorest.
If I would be younger, I already left
maurizio, milan, italy
Antonella, be proud of what?
Mastella?
Prodi?
Berlusconi?
Fassino?
Geronzi?
Tanzi?
Please explain, but don't speak about the sun, history, renassaince, art. All this is the creation of our great grandfather.
Nothing is coming from this generation, we're not creating anything just sucking from the past and living on our fathers inheritage!
Francesco Girolami, Firenze, Italia
Dear Santa Claus,
could you be so kind to ask the British army to invade Italy and put away this kind of politicians we have?
Many thanks
A skilled 30-years-aged with masters degree, 3 languages spoken, living with parents and no hope for the future.
Daniele, Palermo, Italy
Italy's export business had grown by 11.5 percent this year, better than England...
When Italy has the "made in Italy" with beautiful companies, England made nothing, produce nothing, English economy is a virtual thing (finance, speculation).
The life in Italy ? I know turin, tuscany, rome, and we find not this beautiful places elsewhere
Most of english want to live abraod, italian not!
And the unemployment rate is 5.8% not 7% better than France, Germany or Spain.
vince, turin,
Well, first of all, the political class, with the exception of Mr. Berlusconi, has been the same for decades, also during the boom years. Then: why don't you get some information about Mr. Caltagirone, he's no reference. Talking about age, Mr. Montezemolo too, is over-sixty. La Dolce Vita is just a movie, an old movie about Rome and movie stars in the sixties. The present situation has been inherited by Mr. Prodi from Mr Berlusconi, who, in five years, destroyed all it had been built in fifty years. GB has a lower middle age probably due to the much higher number of immigrants and ex-colonies members. The reference to unemployment is ridiculous. What does it mean higher than 76 countries? That means lower than 100 and something coutries too! Finally, we cannot be compared to GB, can we? But when Britons decide for strike, they do not joke, and may remain on strike quite a long time... and how about France? And please, forget Dolce Vita!
Carla Bergamo, São Paulo, Brazil
We are going down... our current government is held together only by the intention of not letting Mr.Berlusconi become prime minister again.
The far left is part of this government, along with its phylosophy of blocking any modernization of the country. Our government has won the latest elections with such a little margin that every party inside it has an effective veto power on decisions. Dialogue with the minority is almost zero as well, since, again, the only thing which keeps the majority together is personal hatred for the leader of the minority.
This means we currently lack a government and any decision-making power, until Mr. Prodi steps back and new elections are held. He keeps smiling at the cameras and does not understand that this situation is indeed destroying this country. Poor Italy.
Andrea, Milan, Italy
It's true that Italy has an overwhelming human capital, and an unique intellectual skill that makes italian researchers really valuable worldwide.
However I think Italy should learn to employ and exploit better this positive features: we cannot accept the terrible hemorrhage of thousand of young skilled reaserchers leaving Italy every year.
The problem its the italian praxis of exploiting, raiding and eventually destroying every single beauty that our country offers us continuously. We should preserve our richness, and not use stupidly for our personal and short-term business.
Moreover, Italian politicians are no longer in tune with the problems perceived by italian denizens, and they can't even understand how pressing is a real energetic policy without oil and gas, that could free us from the cleave threatening our economy.
Valerio, Milano, Italy
The fact that Italy is quickly going down the drain is hardly rocket science. As if decades of successive self-serving, corrupted and geriatric governments were not enough, now we have public spending out of control, state bureaucracy out of control, illegal immigration out of control and law and order have long become a sick joke.
Most of my friends and relatives who are in business have either relocated abroad or they have shut down, because it simply costs too much to employ. And now, after the introduction of the Euro, we have costs of living comparable to those of Monaco, but still Bulgarian-level wages. This is further compounded by some 4M of mostly unskilled immigrants, the majority of whom do not even pay enough taxes to cover the cost of their medical care.
I am glad I saw all this coming, so I left for greener pastures over 30 years ago and I never looked back. Yes, I miss the food and my large country house near Venice, where I was born. But living there? Forget it!
G. Baldo, London, UK
Richard Owen's article hits the nail right on its head. I left London to live in Milan in 1984 - a time when many of the woes afflicting Italy today were creating feelings of angst in the UK: widespread discontent with the ruling classes, uncertainty about the future, high unemployment etc. But in hindsight the perceived difficulties people faced in the UK then were the symptoms of necessary processes of transformation and modernization. Alas that is not the case here. Italy has as yet no politicians of the caliber of Thatcher, little sense of its own collective self-worth and an ethical deficit.
Next month we move to Riga. . .
Charles Goodger, Bologna, Italu
I love Italians when they live abroad. They turn into a civilized lot. They pay tax, don't park on the sidewalk and complain only about the weather. So what is it that makes the Italian grounds so poisonous? Well, Italy suffers from a terminal disease. A brain tumor called Vatican. A state in the state, the shadow government. The Italian politicians being merely puppets, Italy needs to be liberated. We kindly entreat the British forces to stop by on their way back from Iraq.
Mario, Milan/London, Europe
As usual British press is very alarmist and tend to depict a headache as a life threatening illness.
Bit more than an headache really but Italy has seen worse.
It would be easy to agree with the article and say that the whole problem with Italy is the political class (the Casta), the mafia, the Trade Unions, but we often forget that they are made up of Italians. Politicians for instance are democratically elected by Italians.
However, politicians are not accountable for what they do.
Accountability means that, loosing the general election automatically causes the end of the politician’s career. And this happens in all Western countries including UK.
Is there a solution then? Well not an immediate one but in time we must send the Government a clear message. We want accountability. Not less taxes, not better working conditions but accountability. In time the rest will follow. There will be collateral losses but you cannot make a cake without breaking some eggs.
andrea ceccanti, london, uk
I am an Italian living in Hawaii. I think the article doesn't make the important distinction between North and South in Italy. My relatives in Torino and my friends in Milano are doing quite well. No country is perfect. Even the Hawaiian "paradise" in which I live has problems... (By the way, I respect the South of Italy, but it's almost like talking about a different country -- with very different culture and values. Let's be honest about the real differences.)
Luca, Honolulu, Hawaii, USA
Mr Owen, enjoy the fact you're right. But only for the moment...
Bad TV, bad politics and soccer are hypnotizing the change.
If you speak more than 2 languages you are looked at as a strange creature.
see also how hard is for the individual to change an entire country alone. That's why we move abroad. If the 40millions Italian abroad could move back to Italy, and the Italians in Italy were forced to move abroad, things would change! Rotation...
I moved to Luxembourg 4 years ago.
I found a surprising different quality of Italians there, with none of the usual stereotypes attached to them. And funnily enough, I found Other Nationalities having the same tribalism, Mob-style decision making, familism, poor education, tipycally attached to the Italian style... this was truly consoling.
Italians, have a look abroad. Work for foreign companies. Never stop studying... only adaptation to new challenges can save us.
It's tiring to see that only approaching to catastrophe Italy moves..J
Jacopo Lombardi, Luxembourg, Luxembourg
When a country starts to forget the basis of democracy, sooner or later it will turn bad: it's not at all acceptable than a political leader controls televisions, democratic values have turned into empty concepts in my countrry, unfortunately.
I believe Europe should have done more to oblige italians to get rid of this huge problem.
Italo, Taranto, Italy
Italy faces an extraordinary phase of cultural decadence and a lacerating identity crisis.The worst possible sign of all this is that the populace do not seem to realize this and react with bewilderment to criticisms coming from more liberal and self-conscious societies.The xenophobic subtext in the way the media reports about crime is stomach-wrenching..only today repubblica.it reports that "a woman has been kidnapped, killed and dimembered by an italian" as if the nationality of the killer were cause of further outrage.All of this is accepted as "normal".
The Berlusconi phenomenon, something that in other countries would have been regarded as a dangerous anomaly and rejected at its roots, is accepted as "normal" in italy, at least by the parliamentary left.
I have lived in London for all my adult life ( 10 years) and every time I go back to Italy even just for a few days I end up being overwhelmed with a malaise verging on nausea.And I regret this.It hurts.
Gypsy, London, UK
this is like the prediction of the sibilla said
rome will never be defeted by an enemy
but the only enemy is ourselves........
ohhhhh i am superstizioso........
bloody hell, bloody sibilla.....go away.....strega
funanbolo, london,
Italy had an extended period of labour cost growth not in line with productivity growth. It all appears the economic players in this nice country did not adapt to the new situation in a currency union which was dedicated to low inflation, at least not as much as most others did. Starting from a situation with already high wealth and wage inequality in combination with still an indadequate political system, ie, highly protected vested interests, it muddled all through until today -- and will eventually undergo some hardship in the medium term. Yet it will not be alone: the US, UK, Spain, China, and many others will, for different reasons, be on their side.
Frank Cotti, Edmonds, US
i can' t believe that all the world knows the tragic italian situation... and the italians don' t! we are blind
ilaria, berlin, italy
Altough I'm the first one to criticise my country where a lot of things don't work properly, I think this article offers an exagerated portrait of Italian society. Anyway, I agree with the fact that one of our big problems is this gerontocracy which is in charge of everything in Italy: politics, economy, university and so on. Young, well-educated and capable people, who could do a lot, have to wait years before taking over. These "dinosaurs" should retire because they are ridiculous when they talk about Italy's need of modernisation.
Luca, Napoli, Italy
you are right !!! and nothing else.
roberto, verona, italy
Chicco,
Rinascimento was 600 years ago...
ale, rimini, italy
I am really impressed about the commments that our nationals leave on this wall. I am 23 years old, I will finish my Master of Science in a couple of months, I also studied in New York and I worked for the European Commission. Obviously Italy has a lot of problems concerning bureaucracy, innovation, etc. However, I think that we have impressive human capital, even if statistics (made according to the British way of looking at the world) sometimes denies it.
We should start looking with greater optimism and hope at our country because I am sure that, even if we do not perform so well in the UN ranking, very few of us would like to leave Italy and his way of interpreting life.
Francesco, Milano, Italy
Forza Italia! you are a nation of fighters not of wingers so do something about it now. You have great art, great cinema and have taught the world over how to eat, please don't let beautiful your country go to ruin.
Ana, Madrid, Spain
My Wife is Canadian and now finally she's happy here in ITALY!
Yes, the economy and political situation is ugly...But our stile of living and beauty is grater then any economical problems.
Better be with no money in Italy then live a miserable live outside of it.
DON't FORGET THE Rinascimento WE ALWAYS COME OUT WITH SOMETHING NEW>>>AND WE WILL CHANGE THE WORD AGAIN!
Ciao
Chicco
Chicco, Genoa, Italy
Its easy to do yourself down at Christmas. Italy is writ large over all of us. Your contributions to western civilisation don't really need exposition. As a cosmopolitan I love your country and especially the humour and passion of the people that I meet there. Sorry about your politicians. Get in line when it comes to embarassment. Merry Christmas to you all and keep your chins up :)
Larry, Stratford upon Avon,
Yes, we do have some problems, but your article depicts us as the bottom of the third world. Let me just focus on happiness, that's my domain.
Why do you quote a poll of the University of Cambridge to assess our desperation? Does your reporter ignore the World Database of Happiness, the most serious and complete source worldwide?
Click on: http://www.worlddatabaseofhappiness.eur.nl/hap_nat/nat_fp.htm
and go to Nation Ranks and Time Trends. You will discover that UK score 7.1 and Italy 6.9, The difference is 2.8%, negligible. Are UK people as desperate as Italians? Moreover, we are not the at the bottom: behind us there are Spain, France, Greece and Portugal. As for happiness trends, Italy is the forerunner with the highest rate (+0.94); Denmark scores +0.50; UK (+0.13) is considered "stable" since 1973. We could catch you in this decade. Gentlemen, we are all in the top 10 of the world, wealthy, happy, with the hugest expectancies of life and the best security programs. Ciao.
Dom, Rome, Italy
I am italian, but have been currently living in Shanghai, the most booming city of the world, for the last two years.
Here, in China, everything changes in a wink, there, in Italy, nothing changes with years.
Italy is a dead country, where rich people have no interest to change the system, and poor people live in the hopeless lack of organization to change the system.
Whatever we have Left or Right politicians ruling this country, the outcome is always the same: their own interests and priviledges come before anything else.
The day we entered the EU, everybody (even the greatest italian historician and journalist of ever, Indro Montanelli) hoped that this would have meant to be towed by a better system, but the reality is quite different: for us, the EU is just another way to feed us with money going "nowhere" (actually going to the pocket of somebody) instead of being used to build up the necessary infrastructures
Roberto Colombo, Shanghai, China
Each population has got the govern it deserves.
The most of italians and their old mentality to follow compromises and corruption are the main disease of Italy.
Riccardo, Marche, Italia
The hi-tech economy, the booming vehicle of the asian tigers year, is completely ignored in Italy.
The only micro-electronic company, ST Microelectronics, is just an oasis within the desert new start-up, hindered by a politic-economic system that put a curb to any new entrapreneuse: if in the USA there is the Silicon Valley, in Italy we have the Dead Valley...
20 years ago I used to read some interesting articles about eth "New information society" by a great journalist named Manlio Cammarata: at that time he pointed out what were the blocking points that prevented Italy to run at the same speed as other nations, and he worried about the fact that we would have been lingered in the near future: oll of that simply happened, perfectly synchronized as a Swiss clock and we missed another chance to thrive a new economy in our country.
[cont'd] ...
Roberto Colombo, Shanghai, China
There is no sour Italy since there was never a sweet one.
The Dolce vita at Fellini's time, as well as at our time. belonged to a few.
For all others, and especially at that time, life was hard and sour.
Things have changed for a short while, with Italy, as many other countries, enjoying a better life thanks to new technologies and a certain share of the revenue.
But this gave Italians the wrong idea that you can have something, or a lot, the easy way.
China, India and soon Africa and South America, came up to remind that life and richness doesn't belong to a few, Resources must be shared and it is not right that 2% of the world's population enjoy 90% of its richness.
Italy realized that sooner, but do not worry, others will follow.
A cloudy future is ahead of us all.
Either we learn the meaning of the word sharing or we are condemned to a long lasting war.
War fought with real weapons and with economic weapons.
I do not know what hurts more.
Patrizia Broghammer, Sanfre, Italy
Italy in crisis export more than England!
England is less old than Italy easy with english hospitals...
ericano, NYc, usa
In the french movie "La Haine" (The Hate) there's a refrain that goes "The fall doesn't matter, but the landing does" ("Ce n'est pas la chute qui compte, c'est l'aterissage").
The same can be applied to Italy.
Luca F., NL,
It's frustrating. We've been talking about decline for the last 15 years. Not economic or political, but cultural decline. Now, it looks like we've been caught by surprise! Everybody knew this was happening.
Having said this, I am confident the trend will sooner or later be inverted. All countries have their ups and downs, and decline can always be reversed. Italy has a strong potential, everybody knows it, it's just dormient for the time being... We need to be shaken a little, we've always been this way. Officially recognizing decline may be a good start...
Maurizio, Rome, Italy,
the politicians are incapable of putting through radical and substantial reforms, often appear blithely unaware that these reforms are urgently needed, and in many cases seem not overly concerned. Renato Soru
Renato Soru, Cagliari, Italy
Please help us!!
I'm an italian girl and I had enough of this situation!!
I'm ashamed of being Italian!
Giovanna, milano, italy
This article is true more than a Bible for a Christian
In italy there isn't democracy. When police investigates about politicians, they remove the officiers (see about gen. Speciale)
In italy you pay taxes only to maintain old people, unemployed, burocracy, corrupted and none politicians.
Justice doesn't work and nobody do anything, because someone has benefit of this.
Youngs like me have NO FUTURE in Italy.
I hope that Italy collpase, or nothing will change...but I think that it will take time.
I'd like if something change now, or in 5 years....but it's impossible!!! I can't see how things can change!!!
Lorenzo, Cremona, Italy
As they know well the past, Italians sometime prewiewed the future. Please don't undervaluate the italian problems, as part of emerging european problems.
Peter Amico, Milan, Italy
I've only just noticed that the "sources are: UN, CIA, National Statisics" No wonder Owen and Fisher got it so wrong ... must be the same CIA information that spotted the famous weapons of mass-distruction!
Giancarlo Contrafatto, Durban, South Africa
Politicians are slowly 'brasilianazing' Italy.
Francesco, Cagliari, Italy
I'm agree in general with Mr Owen but much people always try to put in prominence the problems of Italy as soon as they can.
it is obvious reading the newspapers and watching the tv in these days
The reason I don't know but is obvious many europeans and americans get satisfaction for our difficulties; in italian we says "girare il coltello nella piaga".
These days for Italy are like for the ancient romans to the passes caudine; the famous "Forche Caudine".
It's possible Italians are substantialy unpleasant to others europeans and americans and for this reason they enjoy when we are in trouble.
I hope that Italy finds the way in order to resolve these problems because It's my motherland and I love It.
Adalbert, Bologna, Italy
Italy has lost its capacity of being able to innovate, and to be efficient: more and more people are escaping from this country trying to find a place which is investing on people willing to innovate and being efficient.
The situation in Italy is definetely on a declining path, the economics is in the hands of old politicians trying to rule us leaving themselves on the top of the edge...steep salaries, usage of ambulance to get into TV shows not to be late...but apparently their only concern is not to have a good "gelato" in the parliament...
I left Italy one year ago, and in the UK at the age of 23 I am able to sustain myself,without the economic support of my parents...this in Italy is not possible especially if you haven't got any working experience. As a new graduate there is no feeling of being a positive asset for a company but an expensive risk to squeeze, use and throw away as soon as there is someone else to use.
I was sad in Italy, now I am happy although not in MY country
Federico, Teramo / Derby, IT / UK
In Italy everything is stucked, if you have an enterprise it will be stopped by red tape.
A few years ago an English reporter who had lived for four in Italy , Tobias Jones, wrote a book entitled "The dark heart of Italy" in which he pointed out the difficulties to find work, even if you are skilled and experienced, dirty politics decides who, where and what. If you want to have a good job you have to pray a politician. Sad but true.
SERENA, PROVINCIA PARMA, Italy
If we are tired about this situation we must emigrate, there is no other solution
SERE, BORGOTARO, Italy
Why not to say clearly that we are badly managed by our political class? And that our situation depends ONLY from that?
Roberto Beretta
Roberto Beretta, Milan, Italy
Italy is sinking and while italians are spleeping behind TV the politicans closed to mafia are saving only their interests."Dolce vita" times are ended, now our life is more bitter. Many thanks to Mr. Owen for this highlight of italian situation, I hope only to emigrate in a civil country and grow up my family far away from this beautiful but unhappy country.
Tommaso Lipary, Rome, Italy
hey we eat the Pasta.is good NO?
joe , padova, italy
Italy stays the best nation of the world, italian people stays the best people of the world, italy has problems to solve (such as the others) but has beauty and style (not the others) and has several millions of companies.
English and american are very jealous.
vincent, NYc, usa
Right, but anyway better than being British.
renato
Renato Soru, Cagliari, Italy
I'm italian, I'm 41, I can't actually complain for myself and I'm trying to do my best as far as I can, but I'm ashamed of my country and I do not trust it in the least.
I have a dream, an impossible one: I dream of Italy being sold (for an exceptionally low price, as a company in bankrupt would be worth) to the European Union, and being made a natural and historical reserve park ruled from abroad by an international commission made of German, Swedish, English, Spanish, French (and so on) technicians. There's some good in this country, a part from pizza and sunshine, but the last time we were able to rule ourselves efficiently was during the Roman Empire: I think that's long ago enough to decide to give it up and let someone else try to save this country from totally sinking, just as one would do for a precious natural enviromnment or an archeological site.
It's an impossible dream, I know.
Nina, Genova, Italy
Please let us free !!!
Stop Prodi, stop Berlusconi, stop Mastella !!!!
Please let us free..... :-(
Andrea, Milano, Italy
In average, people in Italy are lazy: they do not understand the concept of "competition": anything like that is addressed as the "evil american system".
Everybody is happy to think that everything guaranteed: we are the country where the "wellfare" is always mixed up with "performance appraisal": whatever you may be bad at work, it is ok that you keep your seat.
There is no real gain to be good at work and many excellent "brains" found nothing better than emigrates abroad, where they got better salary and better career opportuniies.
Italian school system is a disaster, (hide)bound to ancient teaching methodology.
While in other countries people ends their Bachelor at 22-23 years old and start working, eventually completing the Master during the next years, in Italy the average age to compkete the university is moving towards the 30 years old age.
Roberto Colombo, Shanghai, China
The school teacher are often completely disconnected by the real working system, still teaching topics that have no real advantage once in the world working arena.
English spoken language level is one of the worst in Europe.
We still survive by exporting wine, mozzarella, expensive clothes... my simple question, open to italian politicians is: how long are we going to survive in this way ?
If we were a "company"ruled by strict economic rules, we would have already been facing the bankrupt...
Roberto Colombo, Shanghai, China
italy is sinking..sinking..and sinkig...when we'll rush the bottom..we'll be rushing far away..and sinking sinking sinking...
alexander delarge, mendocino, us
Emigrate!
PT, NY, USA
In due fairness, Mr. Owen's article could only give the 'broad story' of Italy's illness. Which is correct, as reported. However, another ten or twelve articles are needed - or else a small book - to list the symptoms of this illness, of why Italy finds itself in this situation. Irrespective of The Times or the New York Times articles, both of which I have read, the fact remains that Italy has to do something drastic. And this will be painful. Should it ever happen.
Tristan Gatto, Milan
Tristan Gatto, Milan, Italy
i'm an italian guy who lives in nyc. i had to escape from my loved country cos of the bureaucracy and the hate pervading itaily in the last 15 years. Corruption, big crime organizations, the collusion between crime, politics, banks, televisions, insurances, church... is destroying Italy. As with the Roman empire, we were first in the world costruction, we''ll be the first in the world self distruction. Human being has to stop hate. And have to change in the world the concept of money. Sorry and thanks.
nuccinyc, new york, usa
Just one more thing: why should Italians necessarily speak other languages? because it is a tourist country? So, why don't French speak other languages? Or Londiners (the most visited city in the world). Oh, come on! Please find something else to complain about!
Carla Bergamo, São Paulo, Brazil
Italians will be able to chage their country when they'll become able to change themselves. It'll be very difficult, couse they use to think just about themselves and their family. Everybody in Italy thinks this way: "If I'm fine, then everybody is fine". It should be exactly the countrary: "If everybody is fine, then I'll be fine too".
Mauro Di Gregorio, Palermo (Sicily), Italy
This article is a poor version of a much better piece written by Ian Fisher in the New York Times a fortnight ago ... But it is very English, really. Like a Jamie Oliver Italian dinner ... a bad copy of something I have eaten before and appreciated more in its authentic form.
luca, cheltenham, England
Sometimes journalists are just mistificators. They should be objective but instead they just fill the articles with their point of view, confirmed by two or three other sources.
Maybe Mr.Owen the day before starting the article might have gotten a burned espresso in P.za S.Eustachio and got angry with us: I think I could write an article about it. Maybe I'll interview one or two friends of mine who will confirm the fact.
It's easy to write this stuff.
That doesn't cover the fact that we are in a particular moment in our country and we need change, but "Italy is not sinking faster than Venice" as Hilkka Zirkle, Tucson, USA Arizona remarks, maybe forgetting that Venice is part of Italy. But she's excused: she's north american. They can't even point out Iraq from a map: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/05/02/national/main1571756.shtml
To conlude, I'd like to say thanks to Jonny, London, UK that with his comment remarked how, maybe, not only Italy is facing a decline, maybeistheworld
David Rossati 24, Roma, Italia
To all my fellow Italians: have you listened to the Berlusconi-Saccà conversation? It just represent everything that is wrong in Italy. I leave it to you to make your mind up.
Francesca, Bristol, UK
ITALY for the moment is living a bad situation, and i am really upset about that. But also i know, that italians will be able to change their future, maybe not today, maybe not in 2008, but i believe in the italians way to solve their problems.all countries have their own problems, all the countries have their own declines, all the countries have their own growing up- and - down, but noone has italian ''stile di vita'', that is lived in the most surprizing historical,cultural, cities. it is something that can't be learned. it is only in the DNA of the italians, and that's the reason why all the others, when italy is not doing well, proclaim that with loud voices all over the papers and covers. how can this article compare italians with greeks? ha ha, its like comparing albanians with british..maybe not british, better say spanish. and i am albanian, and we're lucky that italy is so close to albania. this has give albanian the opportunitiy to learn smth from the "italian stile di vita
albanian , tirana, albania
Do not trust Mr. Montezemolo and to Mr. Amato, they are just *bad* politicians. Here you are a profile of Amato http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuliano_Amato
"...Durante la commemorazione del magistrato Giovanni Falcone a Palermo ha accusato un ragazzo, che gli aveva fatto notare che nel Parlamento vi sono parecchi parlamentari condannati in via definitiva, di fare del populismo."
Maybe a comic could be more realistic (Beppe Grillo). Italians are becoming poorer and poorer.
I am just another sad, young italian.
Luigi, L'Aquila, Italy
Ithink that Italy nowadays is not anymore a country for families with small children but it is indeed a country for old people.
I think our country isnece to come here in holidays but nomore for living.
Luca, Pisa,
I'm terribly sorry to admit that I'm really sad, when I think about my country's future, beacause there are so many things that actually, simply, definitely don't work. I'm a teacher, and I can see every day that for a huge number of people words such as education, merit, pride don't exist (but then we're all so proud of being Italians when our national football team wins the world cup). We don't trust our government, our politicians, our public services, beause they are, most of the times, unreliable. I come from one of the richest and most active regions in Italy (Emilia Romagna) where even public services are not at all that bad, but, alas, this thought makes my only feel more depressed about my country, still divided into the rich north and the poor south. Nonetheless, I try everyday, to do my best to improve things, at school, for example, but most of the times it's just like a drop in an ocean of indifference. To change, to really change things, we should change our mentality.
Ileana, Modena, Italy
I would like to remind Mr Owen that the 2005 Economist Intelligence Unit's Quality-of-Life Index places Italy at number 8 and the UK at number 29 on a list of 111 countries. The survery is based on factors such as material well being, health, community life, job security, and so on.
And children growing up in the United Kingdom suffer greater deprivation and are exposed to more risks from alcohol, drugs and unsafe sex than those in any other wealthy country in the world, according to a study from the United Nations.
And just look at how many elderly people emigrate from the UK to France, Spain and Italy every year.
How we treat our children and elderly is quite telling of the general well being of a Nation. Don't you think?
Nico, Cosenza, Italy
Mr Giuliano Amato, actually in the government, was the secretary of Bettino Craxi, one of the most corrupted politicians in the world. We don't want that he speaks for us. I'm an honest worker with a family and I don't want to be represented by criminals.
Marco, Venezia,
Indian Tata buys Jaguar.... england is so ridiculous and this ridiculous and jealous country attacks italy, the most beautiful country of the world!!!
ericano, paris, France
Your comments are so stupid!
Italy exports more the England!
Why ?
Italian people are more beautiful than english people!
Why ?
Ferrari is italien and not english!
why ?
Italy is world champion and England is coached by Capello!
why ?
why ?
al, paris, France
I would like to announce that Italy's export this year has increased AND NOT decreased. Italy's export has surpassed Great Britain and Canada, registering the 7th position on export in the world (got from 9th to 7th). Before writing nonsenses, please read the economic reports. Two or three yers ago, I remember, newspapers were throwing mud on Germany, saying tremendous things as well... And Italians seem so negative towards themselves, expecially those from southern Italy, always expecting to be saved from someone else (italian goverment, europe, the north)... And to the person from Bolzano, please consider the big amount of money you get from the Italian government every year as you are a "special region".
Francesca Bruni, Milano,
I, as a UK citizen, have lived in Italy since 1978. I have seen every thing from "clean hands", state corruption, to baton charges outside of the police station while waiting to renew my "Soggiorno" (work permit) - EU don't make me laugh!
In the 1990's I was racially abused and threatened by Italian officials. Italy may have stopped the Mafia in Sicily, but corruption within the state is still a very dominant part of today's administration; whether local or national, and can be found at all levels.
Italian middle industry that made fortunes over the last 30years are now crying like babies because of international competition, and for the simple reason that they did not spend a penny on research and development during a period of time when they made massive profits.
No, Italy is only good for holidays. NOT a place to live.
John, Brescia, Italy
I'm 34... Italian born and raised in Sicily until 25.
Lived in many countries in Europe, the US, South America over the last 8 years. I have an MBA and worked for GE before and for a UK bank now.
I know well how Italy compares to other countries. I know Italians and their differences to others.
This generation grew up without ambition!! The best are all abroad!!!! The ones in Italy are asleep, frustrated, demotivated.
Motivation is the greatest engine for every human endeavour:
Italy won the 2006 world cup because otherwise player would have all gone to jail or Serie B!!!!!!!!
Italy made it into the Euro in 1998 because otherwise it could have joined Africa.
Just to mention two great accomplishments of the same people today blamed for Italy's decline.
GIVE ITALIANS A REASON TO BE THE GREATEST AGAIN and they will respond! Move their hearts toward a great cause and they won't disappoint.
We need an alien to come and save the country...
Salvatore Frisina, london, UK
I have been living in Rome for 4 years. Prior to that I lived more than 10 years in the UK. I am neither British nor Italian. I work for an Italian company, speak Italian and have made many Italian friends. My opinion is that half of Italy’s economic problems is due to prevailing mentalities..
A society which does not embrace challenge is a ‘dead’ society. In Italy nothing is moving.
People are afraid to lose their job, but most don’t want challenges. They want the job for life, they prefer to moan and feel victims rather than ‘move their …â€
On the other side, employers are not afraid to pay low salaries. Why do otherwise if they can have it all ‘for free’? They will tell you they pay such high taxes taxes (Everyone in Italy will tell you they pay too much taxes, and almost everyone will try to declare less than they earn, but that’s another story, although it is definitely part of the issue). That’s short-sighted mentality. Italy is like a snake biting its own tail.
Anne, Rome, Italy
The main issue is the secondary school (primary one is well). The politicians don't want to improve it in order to make a selective system like other country.
Mario Rossi, Milan, Italia
I totally agree with this article. Italy needs a complete makeover and in order to accomplish this it will have to get rid of its old fashioned way of doing politics and the costume of favour making and asking. What disappoints me is that Spain and Greece, once far behind Italy in terms of GDP, are overtaking us. I just hope we'll be able to become "Capitum Mundi" again....
Antonella, Sassari, Italy
English happiness ? alcoho, alcohol, alcohol....
ericano, paris, France
Easy to see the negative, and it seems the main sport of conformistic journalism and of common place. If you read the most recent World Bank reports, italy is far from being ovetaken by Spain. This is mithology. And why so low solidarity towards a UE state member? Why this stupid vision of competion? It is so XIX century! Notice that this journalisti is visioning all this negative from Rome. Rome is in South part of the country we can say. The Country is carried by the Centre-North. Anyway, Italy needs some rigours and sacrifice in this phase, so please go somewhere else and live well with your all your competitive triumphs.
Alberto, Mialn,
I agree with Mr. Owen for the most part, However, both he and Mr. Ian Fisher, who wrote recently in the New York Times about our winter of disappointment, have forgotten to mention that Italian national pastime that is self-deprecation. We are never content. Even when things go moderately well, and other countries, under similar circumstances, would declare themselves at least satisfied, the Italians keep on self-deprecating. Besides this, I fully agreee that the job for life mentality, the self-centredness and family-centredness together with common lack of civil sense are a very good recipe for disaster. However, I think that the Italian need to boost their confidence and not to fall in the rrap that the country is inevitably doomed. Thinking that there is no longer hope is a form of ideology that continues to feed the status quo but does not encourage positive action.
Marisa Ponti, Gothenburg, Sweden
Stop blaming the politicians ! What are we doing ? Looking for the latest mobile phone and update our playstation softwares ! V-Day is not enough, there are more reasons NOW to go in squares and make noise than in the "faboulous" '68. But we are sitting and just complaining, in the meanwhile trying to find a new way how not to pay taxes. This is us !
Healthcare runs by politics, no public services, violence and dead people during footbal games ... oh yes, but now we can be so proud that Mr. Capello is managing England and Ms. Bruni is dating the French President.
What a shame !
Enzo, Pescara, Italy
It's poignant that in article referring to Italy's position vis-a-vis Spain you should use a photograph of La Dolce Vida showing a Spanish bullfighter (Luis Miguel DomingÃn) astride a vespa!
Richard Grant, Bath, UK
It's funny, this kind of articles come out immediately after the data on the worldwide export: Italy: 3,6%, Great Britain: 3,2%. Italy is the seventh largest exporting country in the world behind China, Germany, United States,Korea+Hong Kong Japan and Framce.
Luca, Roma,
I wander how can we trust the polls in matter of happiness. If you have to test the economic figures of a situation, statistic is the way. But is that maningful for happiness? I read once a "poll" asserting that the happiest peoples are in the poorest contries, because in these countries there are closer relationships. Italian depression in not about economy performances, but about loss of reputation and of confiìdence in own's cultural status
Marco Focchi, Milan, Italiy
Let's hope that this detailed and objective report on Italy may cry havoc and make us understand who/what We are and where We want to go;
all the best, Mauro.
Mauro Verde, Milan, Italy
Times article it is unfair for Italy but it is correct.
In my opinion we have had the worst political leadership in Europe since 70s. The presence of mr Berlusconi in the italian scenario is the greatest problem of italian people.
Furthermore the presence of Vatican it is the greatest problem for the improvement of our country in the way of modernity.
Franco, Milano, Italy
It's all about people, you can achieve/change almost everything if you want. But it seems "every italian looks out for himself and not for the common good."
A Country is made of people but if noone fights for the change, there will be NO change at all.
I'm Italian myself at least on the ID, I was born in Bolzano, once part of Austria, and believe me my region have learnt something about it...
Stefan, Bochum, Germany.
Poor Italy!! I am a young italian guy, I'm 21 years old, i've been living in italy for almost 12 years, and i think that this country is getting day after day worse. As Wanda said, Italy is a dead end street. Here there's no place for talented youth, there's no way to realize your dreams, but only a 1000 euros job and a hard life. I will surely leave this country...
Michel Romilio Fassone Garcia, Rome, Italy
Italy needs a lay Giovanni XXIII to open the windows and let in some fresh air, and more importantly let out the foul air. A corrupt government leaned on by a re-corrupted church makes for the current state of affairs.
Robert, New York, USA
Well, between Richard Owen's article and the many comments here, the average international reader can male up his/her mind on Italy's gloom. Compound all this with only 55 % of the population active in work, 7 % of Italian graduates emigrating every year, rising immigration from mostly unskilled workers, 26th rank in Europe in terms of numeracy and scientific skills at secondary school level, and the picture becomes even less rosy.
The average citizen has to endure rising tax bills, patchy and costly health care, lowering school standards, a political class more and more detached from reality, crumbling infrastructure and transports ... Hang on, doesn't sound like Britain all this?
Fabrizio, Bristol, UK
The real problem in Italy is that when someone criticizes us, we immediately agree with him/her. No sense of patriotism, no pride, no care for this fantastic, unique, wonderful country. We rarely try to defend our Italy (which, I like to underline, still holds the 70% (or 80%) of the worldwide artistic heritage).
I think our major problem is that we have still not learnt to respect each others, we simply do not care and we do not have any civil conscience. Our politicians perfectly reflect us.
antonella, verona, italy
Mr. Prodi's comment to this article is typical of the arrogance that has brought ITALY to its present sad situation...
Furthermore, in Italy you don't need a valid modern education;
you only need a godfather to push to appear in the state's owned monstrous tv, RAI, to become rich and famous...in any case you can always become the mistress of the modern sunday heroes, football players.
Thank you Mr. owen. Please go on. Don't be intimidated by the great Italian Cast.
Vincent Mollicola, Roccella Jonica R.C,, Italy
The Time: " Some younger Italians are prepared to take short-term contracts, which is part of the Prodi Government’s modernisation programme, ... "
Nobody cares about it but let me say...
The govt Prodi have done almost nothing regarding the free market labor or other important reforms. The so-called 'modernisation programme' was made by previuos governments (both centreleft and centreright during last ten years). Prodi did only some weak (and almost pointless) liberalizations and nothing more. That's all, sadly all!
P.T., Rome, Italy
Still too many (stupid) old-family nobles, converted into Marxists during the 1970s, converted into mediocre rulers and (ignorant) university teachers in the 1980s and today. Still too many Catholics in the ruling class, with their web of friends and ‘clientes’. The last truly laic and liberal (in the European meaning) politician probably was Luigi Einaudi. Still too few citizens who raise their voice against bureaucrats’ stupidity, against academicians’ ignorance and parochialism, against politicians’ arrogance. Still too many ‘buoni con i soldi dei contribuenti’ (munificent and good people with taxpayers’ money).
I’m frankly too happy to spend my year in Baltimore (MD), away from Italian academy.
Giulio Giovannoni, BALTIMORE, MD (U.S.)
It's always the same old story...Italy has a lot of potential but it's one of poorest country in Europe. What people from other states need to know is that this situation is just the result of a wrong path: our governement had chosen to get into the Euro without any planning, serious planning. The problem is that every Italian think just about his wallet without any sense of community or nation. In the North there still some people that believe that Italy should not be a NATION!It's just crazy...
To handle this situation Italy needs a homo novus, someone that just bring back order...rules...sense of nation...one like M. Tatcher.
In any case I also want to say thank you to Mr. Owen. I'm just hoping that articles like this can bring the italians to improve their condition.
If not, I think I'm just going to follow the path of my grand parents and leave my country...
Nicodemo, Brescia, Italy
I am an Italian "ragazzo", even if I am 29 years old. I am one or the new slaves that everyday work in this country for less than 700 € per month. I have to live with my parents, my "mamma" the real unique mythological being of Italy, omnipresent. So, I know that Italy is facing a bad period, not only because I read about it in the newspapers but simply when I live my everyday life: you can read the crisis in the eyes of people, in their unpolite yells, in theri arrogant behaviour.
On the other hand the situation is more complex than what it seems. I can not believe when a man from my country gives such a reductive judgement about Southern Italy because these regions have not only good weather or deep blue sea; maybe Lombardy is greener than Apulia or Sicily and Conero sea is not less blue than sea of Salento. But mafia has spread everywhere, also in Pesaro. And we are not all machoes and finally, if we do not speak English at all, why do not you try to talk us in French? Bye
andrea, Tricase (Le), Italy
As an outsider looking at Italy's situation, I see tremendous potential especially in the tourism sector for many of the underdeveloped areas of Italy.
However, even in this regard, I find the country inward looking, with little incentives for outside investors to invest in the country.
Instead, much of the investment money goes to tourism development in areas nearby, such as Croatia.
If the country opens up more to outside ideas and provides more incentives for foreign investors, I think Italy has a bright future.
Zak Zimmer, London, UK
It had to be an American from Arizona writing, in my last trip to Italy noone spoke English. If you want people to speak English then don't go to Italy, stay in your dear US or go to England. In Italy they speak Italian, maybe you should learn a language if you want to travel.
Blanca, london, uk
well done...the few lost souls left here will now think about going to london..more italians in the u.k...
Come to italia instead! we got naked women on tv, a german Pope, wine as good as blood and you can do whatever you want and never get caught! great innit?
luca75, Napoli, Italia
Pasta, leaning towers, pizza, criminals and over-priced clothes. That's all you've got.
Unlucky. Good bye Italy!
Jonny, London, UK
Referring to Ms Zirkle's statement that the development of a country is linked to the mastering of foreign languages, I wonder how an Italian tourist, let alone Finnish, would rate the developmetnt of Tucson, AZ in trying to make him/herself understand in her/his mother tongue
franco denes, venice, italy
The issues raised in this and NYT paper cannot be rejected as false and belong to a series of USA/UK newspaper articles on the irreversible decline of Italy. Moreover, during Euro "pregnancy" many claimed that Italy would have not been able to get it, but instead Italy did it. Moreover, both Times and NYT papers associate Italy's luxury firm problems in facing globalization with competition from low cost products, a non-sense comparison: instead several signs of economical resurgence start to be detected (see recent Montezemolo speeches). On the political side, people's reaction to "casta" power, a referendum to change electoral system and worker's approval (by more than 80%) of a pension reform retarding retirement are possible signs that Italy's change after fascism and second world war can be completed. The most relevant issue at present is to accompany the "selfperpetuating political elite" rejection with a cultural (not "age") change strenghthening.
Stefano Morara, Milano, Italy
I'm a 42 year old teacher from Italy and I'd like to say that unfortunately Richard Owen is right: Italy is declining. I'd point out the Italian education system; it's seriously "ill": our average students are more and more ignorant! Italy is still a very beautiful country, but I'm very corcerned about its future.
Giovanni, Sicilia, Italy
I am Italian and have lived in the US for 27 years. The problems that Italy faces today are the same that led me to move to the US in 1980. The only thing that has changed in the meanwhile is geopolitics, mostly in Italian disfavour - end of the cold war, economical rise of Asia, etc.. The main problem for Italy is a ruling class (not just politicians, but also industrialists, academicians, burocrats) who steadfastedly refuse to accept meritocracy as the criterion on which to run the country. Instead, too often many aspects of society contiune to be run based on nepotism, which italians have diligently learned to practice over the centuries from the Master - the Roman Catholic Church. The notons that people need to believe in their own capacities rather than relying in the support of powerful acquaintances is sadly alien to Italian mentality. Do I miss Italy? very much so. Do I regret of having relized my professional goals abroad? not a bit. Italy is good for summer vacation.
Paolo, San Antonio, Texas/USA
I lived as erasmus student 6 mounths in Norway..and i think every country has its "dark side"..for instance i'm graduated and i started few months ago my job as internet manager in medium size firm..my salary is nothing to compare with a norwegian's one..!!
In any case, foreigner peope often don't understand the fact that in Italy we have 2 country; nothern-center one is economically develeoped, rich, low unemploiment rate (3 or 4%), no mafia and the southern one, that's VERY VERY DIFFERENT as nobody can understand it..! Really it's incredible how we could be different in the same country..South Italy no job, no firm, no road, no train..just nothing except sun and sea..
Andrea, Pesaro, Italy
I think this article is full of opinions more than facts, a collection of negative self-moaning of Italians about themselves . Self-critizing is a national sport in Italy and we like to endlessly muttering on our nation's problems. Thus, as sharks smelling the blood, some newpapers with a long history of dislikement for Italy, quickly bite the prey. Of course, Italy has its problems, but the real problem is that Italians do not know foreign countries' problems as well. I've lived for some months in UK and USA, and I know that we usually moan about things that in other countries are current practice, but nobody considers them as problems, or at least nobody talks frankly as we do.
Often, we receive lessons of civilizations by citizens of countries that have filled their Museums entirely with masterpieces literally robbed in our countries and other 'inferior' countries ('thieves' is the right word).
However, I thank Mr Owen for his view. Maybe, Italy will stand up for his pride.
Vito, mola di bari, italy
I am a foreigner of European descent and have lived in Italy for the past number of years. The Italian people, language and culture are wonderful. I think both the NY Times and London Times articles focused on many of the issues facing both foreigners and Italians in this nation.
There are tax paying, small businessmen like myself - who help the economy and provide jobs - from Western Europe & North America who can no longer remain in Italy. I myself will have to leave this coming year and will relocate to Northern Europe, because Italy is a bureaucratic nightmare. As I leave, another 250,000 immigrants will arrive in Italy in 2008, from poorer nations in search of jobs, using the health care and educational system, while Italy can no longer provide good services for her own citizens. If I was an Italian young person, I would move to another Western European nation for work.
John Porsen, Sweden,
I support the fight of workers at La Scala Theatre in MIlano. I do not agree with the cristicism done by the article of a supposed socialist action in safeguarding job positions.
Too mmuch criticism from a country whose troops were killing innocent lives in Iraq just for oil and hosts thousand of banks supporting the global war.Please clean hands and mouth before talking.
Gian Marco , Sassari, Sardegna
Well, I'm italian and I'm 25 years old. I have to admit that the article explains the hard and worring destiny in wich Italy is going through. In my opinion the biggest Italy's problem is the "raccomandazione". Younger people in Italy are simply not free at all. There's no freedom. We are not free to choose what we'd like to do as our job. We are not free if we have not an important family member or a friend who works as politician that helps us with the most important word in Italy, "raccomandazione". For instance, if you want to became a journalist you must have the right "friends" that are, unfortunately for us, better than any University degree or work experience.
Marco, Calabria,
To Dea in Marsala.
I am going back to good old USA also. I understand your point...I was born here, I am Italian and after four years here I can not take it any longer. Is a dead end street. Run for your life. I never seen people so against in changing for the better. If Mr. Nixon really said that Italy is a Country to forget, he was right. Another thing that gets 2 me are the unbelievable high prices in hotels . I wonder, how they get the 4 or 5 stars, maybe raccomandazioni? I sure do not seem to get what I pay for in terms of quality or service. For what I see in TV Italians are starting to believe that they must to bank on the "legendary Italian class..." What class? I do not see any around...
Wanda, Roma,
Italy is a disaster.
unemployment rate is going down it's true, but salaries are the lowes in the E.U.
I've worked abroad, in the UK as well, and I have never seen such a depressed people as italians are. Italians are like slaves at work, too many problems in finding the first job or replacing a lost one.
Social life in Italy? which one? everyone live at parents' home till 40 years!
what about finding a nice wife in Italy? almost impossible, that's why people start to go abroad finding a nice and beautiful girlfriend..
in a few words, italy is a desperate country!
claudio, rome, italy
I've asked to build a lift for an eighty years old woman, living in a country house, who can't reach her flat because of her bad health. It takes more than four mounths to obtain the authorization and less than a mounth to build it. That's italian bureaucracy.
Mario Cappelletti, Macerata, Italy
Some statisctics are not true: for example: unemployement rate is 5,2 % the lowest one since '92, and not 7%, then, 1,35 children born per woman and not 1,29.
As for export:Germania (9,7%),Stati Uniti (8,6%), Cina (8,4%), Corea+Singapore+Hong Kong (7,3%), Giappone (5,2%), Francia (4,2%), Italia (3,6%), Regno Unito (3,2%), Canada (3,1%), Russia (2,3%) e Spagna (1,8%). Italy is Great Britain and Canada ahead and look at Spain, the last one!!
As for GDP per capita gap between Italy and Spain, many spanish economist told that we can consider it as a sort of "DRAW" because of the difference of prices in the countries.
It's not all negative!! and we dont' forget Italy has almost nearly four millions of emigrants and it's the country with the highest percentage behind Germany and Spain.
Luca, Roma,
In Italy everybody under the age of 40 is called "ragazzo / ragazza", that is "young boy / young girl". This is the very beginning of current Italian problems.
Also, in Italy 30 year old people are told by their parents that their highest priority is to secure a pension for the time they will be 60 years old. They are not told that they should try to build the present and the future of their country.
Gianluca Belogi, Rome, Italy
(2/3)We are not in the aftermath of the WWII when money and influential attention was poured over Italy by the east and the west releasing the high potential, although fuelling a latent civil war (Just a few want to use this very word). World has been changing fast in the last two decades, Italy now stands in a common European playground where cannot devaluate the Lira anymore, trade and cultural barriers have been lifted generating a new environment which proved fertile for some nations which redesigned themselves and became important players. Nevertheless this period has seen Italy standing still, only changing a little. Very few reforms have been brought forward, trying to procrastinate the confrontation with the contingencies of globalization. Now this instead is turning to be a clash. It is clear that there is no political will to modify the status quo and here it comes the issue: a political caste not pursuing public interest, drifting away from the real issues, only able to patch
Christian Finelli, Vignola(MO), Italy
(1/3)Italian society is structured around families based on any sort of criteria; blood, religion, politic, wealth, etc. These small ships barely aggregate, every one looks after its own interest leading to harsh animosity and difficult coordination where common goals can be hardly pursued. The state and politics have always been scarcely trusted so in such a condition, personally knowing somebody sitting on the right chair can prove vital in obtaining rewards and favors. So small groups affiliate to protect or pursue interests specific to the group. This is why holding whatever power has a tremendous value in Italy, power that is exercised accurately and boldly. Spanning from Parliament to local councils, trough public sector and cultural life, such system is widespread in Italy, although, it is worth mentioning, with exceptions.
Christian Finelli, Vignola(MO), Italy
This article is already on the cover of our TV News. I basically agree with the diagnosys. Situation is worsening also because the State and its Government are weak. No solution is in sight. The elders are a powerful costituency no one can challenge hoping to leave his chances of polical success alive. There is also a lack of counsciousness about what should be done: buiding infrastructures, for instance, or improving our education system. No way. People is worried only about consumption. However, savings and investments are required if we want to avoid further decline.
Germano Dottori, Rome, Italy
I'm Scottish but I love living here, I love the people, the food, the scenery, the art and culture, Italy still has a lot of great things going for it.
But watching the nightly news drives me mad, every side talking and disagreeing but nobody doing anything concrete. There have been some small improvements in bureaucracy but it can still be a mornings work just to do something simple.
The education system isn’t working. The facilities in Italian schools are sliding down to a third world level - a minimum of sports facilities, few books in libraries, badly equipped science laboratories and computer facilities and many students don’t have teachers at the start of the school year.
The level of English won’t improve unless students are taught the English necessary for the real world, far too much time is spent on English Literature which doesn’t help much if you have to close a business deal.
Lucille Watters, Portoferraio, Italy
Try reading an excellent book "The Dark Heart of Italy" by Tobias Jones (Faber 2004).
As a frequent visitor to Italy all things about Italy became clearer after my reading this book. Italy, the most wonderful country in the World to me, is very sick in the political sense. Yet it has excellent engineers and its industry has dynamism and creativity. Tourism is, rightly so, still flourishing. The people are friendly and welcoming. But, its political leaders are long since past their sell-by date and still fighting the same old battles which have been fought over for decades.
Italy needs a new political class. Most of all it needs a young, charismatic leader to blast them out of their political log-jam. Berslusconi, an amusing and cunning man is, sadly, of the past. He is not the man to take Italy into a golden future.
The Mafia is still the most powerful 'business' empire in Italy. Italy's politicians and police have failed to curb the Mafia's influence. Come on Italy ! Wake up !
Jimmy, Nottingham, England
Italy has it's problem, that is absolutely true. Buf the style of the article is the usual product of someone who still thinks of living in the British Empire. When I visit my friends in Devon, they find the UK an unbearable place to live. Many UK citizens emigrate to Spain when old: is this a sign that the UK is a place not suitable for elders ? Then there is this presumption that any other population should be able to speak English: how many British citizens can speak another language ? I met many people in the UK (where I also worked by the way) and have a lot of friends there: let me tell you that none of them can speak a foreign language fluently. At leas we try. I speak four languages fluently, I am happy and have a very happy life and family. This is Italy also, there is much more under the hood. Just relax Mr. Owen, the British Empire is over.