Why didn't these do gooders protest in the Australian Olympics ? or didn't the Aborigines matter !.

Jasmine, London, U.K.

I have great respect for the Chinese people and enjoy visiting China. But, one thing the Chinese people have to get used to is the attention which comes from being a world power. How many people on these forums, including Chinese people, are still blaming the UK for "empire", even though that ended decades ago? The next great power was the US - how much criticism have US citizens had to put up with over the last 20 years or so? Apart from being labelled the 'great Satan' in the Muslim world, they've also had European liberals, Asian/Russian nationalists, Chavez, practically the whole world criticising them.

Unfortunately, when you become the dominant power in the world other countries will pay more attention to your actions, and expect high (sometimes impossible) standards of behaviour. That's just the way it is. Welcome to the role of a "superpower".

RDG, Shanghai,

Many people here claim they are against only the Chinese government but not the Chinese people. I think it is hypocrite. Does anyone really care what the Chinese people think or want? Do a poll if the western media bother to, I believe majority of the common Chinese people want a peaceful, enjoyable Olympic Games. You just try to rip off them of the joy, humiliate the Games and claim it is for their own interest.

Timmy, London, UK

Why is the Bahrain Government News Agency doing the bidding of China and saying that everything was peaceful as the torch passed trhough London and Paris ?.
Read this: http://english.bna.bh/?ID=68763

Steve, London, UK

What a sad indictment of the human race this blog has turned into. If the people placing comments here are representative of the majority of others around the world - then may your God, or yourselves, help us all. To quote Fraser in Dad's Army, "We are all doomed, doomed I say!".

Colin, Sarlat, , France

may your country hold a respectable Olympic game
everyone has their own problems
so does a nation

dayu, Harbin, china

Hey Stella,

I can read and write English and Japanese - can you?
If not, do you agree that Chinese people who can't read Japanese news sources should not be allowed to comment on Japanese government policy in any way?

I suspect not.

Graham, Bournemouth, UK

Some people are wrong when they say Chinese people do not have free speech at all. Foreigners have only noticed the fast development of Chinese economy, but they have failed to see that other aspects like human rights in China have also improved. We do have some free speech and are allowed to have 'peaceful' protests now but we defintely won't tolerate violence or crime as some Tibetains committed. The old impression about China should be updated and do not be manipulated by western media.

Lily, Leeds,

I'm with Craig from Liverpool: I also am sick of all these tree hugging hippy losers and their Free Tibet sloganeering - it's just the current fashion; next week it'll be something else.

The "olympic movement" (no pun intended?) will be obliged to cancel all further torch relays since these idiots will clearly always find something to protest about.

Alan, Edinburgh,

Dont like London, Yuping? Then leave. After all, the non restrictive policies that democracies such as the U.K, France and the U.S operate, allow the unrestricted movement in and out of the country as the individual wishes.

Daniel Kearton, Lincoln, United Kingdom of Great Britain

I'm heartened by some fellow "Westerners" that are saying intelligent things.
Did the rest of you never learn about European history and propoganda...did you never study English and look at the media? Are you so naive to think that WE get to see the whole truth in OUR media?
Our press is just self-censored according to what will get people talking or get higher ratings. Especially with our current 24-hr news culture.
Look at the French press on this. Try reading the BBC's report on this same event and you get a good flavour of the different nuances of reporting. Don't be fooled by the BBC's increase of ethnic-minority broadcasters! After all, tax-payers' money pays for it - listen to what is being said and keep your eyes open.
Whenever I've tried to make deeper comments than "we should look at ourselves first" the BBC doesn't publish me. We're fooled into thinking we have democracy because we can openly blame our Government for everything, but that's not the whole truth is it?

Simon, London,

No wonder a riot had lasted for such a long period in Paris not long ago. From this event, I am sure that the once great and powerful France will shortly become a third tier counrty behind not only US, Russia, but also China and India. Glad to see this.

Thomas, Hong Kong,

I find some of the comments on the alleged brainwashing of the British government/media of its citizens severely offensive.

It is absolutely preposterous to compare a nation where the government has no control over the media to a country where press freedom is stifled and innocent people are put in prison for expressing their views.

Surely the fact that you can post comments on this website proves this point, whereas any other opinion which deviates from the government line is not tolerated in China.

Before you criticise that I don't know anything about China, I have Taiwanese friends who can back me up on this. From my personal experience with many of the Chinese students who were on my journalism(!) course in the UK, I can also say that they were unwilling to question anything put forward by the government/the media - whereas if anything my journalism course has taught me to question all news sources - yes even The Times!

Michael Hunt, London,

Well, it looks to me as the London police in fact were more skilled in handling the situation as the torch never got out although a protester even managed to get his hand on it for a (very) brief moment. The Paris police had better conditions as they were informed and prepared. Yet they voluntarily chose to extinguish the flame themselves instead of facing and handling the crowds. Bad sport! Where is the French elan to get a project through to its end?
At the same time French politicians have more guts than their British counterparts, telling their opinion about right and wrong, as compared to the British politicians flat, obedient idolatry of China and its propaganda. Shame on you all, and thank God for President Sarkozy because he will deliver us all from evil and as the President of the European Union politically boycott the Opening Ceremony.

Michael Mountland, Gamleby, Sweden

Not a single comment from China that is critical of its regime. That says it all really. Anyone daring to be critical would be arrested and tortured and feature in the next issue of an Amnesty International magazine. I wouldn't be surprised if all the positive comments from China are from government officials since the Chinese internet is so regulated.

At least we have free speech (barely).

Ricardo, London, UK

do you call this 'democracy'? this mess? this disaster? if this is democracy, people may be better off without it. if democracy is doing whatever one wants, even violating others' rights, people are better off without it. if democracy is covering up one's own bad deeds and accusing others' mistakes or even good deeds, then people are better off without it.
it's simple western countries who are trying to undermine other countries and stopping them catching up with them, wishing them staying behind, 'backward', underdeveloped, so that they can do whatever they want, like a flock of flies or parasites. 'Democracy' can often be used as a pretext for something really bad, such as what is happening to the Olympic torch in London, in Paris, and perhaps in San Francisco. if this is the so-called democracy, people can discard it without much regret. the world would be better without the so-called democracies. Korea, Viet Nam, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc., are good examples.

yuping, london,

To stuart knight from cambridge, UK
Your opinions are so ridiculous.Is there no poor people in UK?
The economy of one area depends on many factors,even I who study Mechatronics konw this common sense.The Chinese government spend much on Tibet every year."Tibet is left behind. Let them free. " How funny!
OK Let Northern Ireland Free!!!

Well I konw English so I can read the foreign website,but most of you know little Chinese ,you cann't know what the Chinese people think about the matter. I just stick up some Chinese comments.
1西方的民主简直就是个笑话，他们谈人权，可能连什么叫人权都不知道。达赖集团分明就是暴力分子，烧杀抢砸，无恶不作，西方媒体不去遣责，反倒助纣为虐。他们谈的人权就只是 针对施暴者吗？
2奥运圣火一旦点燃,她就象征着世界人民的和平友谊和发展的愿望和决心,一任何理由破坏奥运圣火的行为必然是以世界人民美好的和平/友谊/发展愿望相悖,必然遭到全世界人民的唾弃和谴责!!!一切藏独及其其他反华的小丑们必将遭到可耻的下场!!!
3.这让我们看到了所谓的西方的民主，就是民主是建立在他们自己主观评判的基础之上的，如果他认为你是一个民主的国家，那么你的所作所为也会按照民主的逻辑来进行评判，如果他 们认为你是非民主的国家，那么即便你的行为是民主的，那么他们也要用非民主的逻辑来解释这种民主的行为。
There are a huge amount of comments, but you cann't see them in western media.

Stella, Beijing, China

I agree with Joe.
this is not about Anti-Chinese ...rather more to do with Anti Chinese 'Authorities' who choose to consistently flaunt their denial of basic human rights towards people and are stubbornly strong armed in their approach towards World media reactions and protests of such sort.

Its sad to know that information in China is being censored as usual and majority of the Chinese people are oblivious to the protests.

Hence there is no need to get defensive - this is not cultural at all...clearly a political issue.

Free Tibet!

Ekta, Farnborough, Hampshire, UK

I received western education in HK and studied in Ldn for three years, and now I am working in Beijing. China is not perfect, I confess, but is improving. Chinese are not that stupid, only listening to those official propaganda; they can access to the western/HK media reports to get the a fair view, like what I am doing now. I have nothing to say if what had happened in Lhasa is described as "peaceful" protests, but not looting or arson. You guys are belittling Chinese when you say that the Chinese speaking for the govt are brainwashed. If only those having "perfect" human rights record can host the games, then the games should only be held in Greenland or Easter Islands. Come to visit Beijing in Aug, maybe you will have different views.

Anson, Beijing, China

KOU, Beijing, China

Money and communism do not mix. And what you have is not communism. The only country that has come close to communism is Singapore and that's been achieved through pure capitalism.

Igor, Ljubljana, Slovenia

Calm Down

Every time I read a Chinese post I get the feeling that the person feels that they are being attacked or ganged up on by the world. This is not so.

If you take the time to read the comments and think about it, the posts are not anti-Chinese. The posts are against the occupation of one of the most peaceful nations in the world - this explains why so many people feel so strongly about it; not because they hate China.

It is not a good feeling to feel ganged up on. This is the feeling that Tibetans have had for many years.

Some Chinese posters have rightly commented on British and American wrong doings throughout history. This however does not give them the right to do the same thing.

If we want to live in an age of peace and harmony - as the Olympics tell us - then we must stop acting like savages. War and conquest are the very things that the Olympics was set up to avoid. If Germany had already invaded Poland there would have been no 1936 Olympics.

Free Tibet.

joe, Berwichshire, Scotland

I find it laughable that Chinese readers of the Times complain that these protestors are trying to bring politics into the Olympic Games. Maybe I missed something but the games have always been about the politics and the promotion of the country they are held in. Beijing is trying to use them to prove China is a strong and great country. No problem with that but dont try to claim that there is no amount of politicing involved.

I see alot of people on here saying that Tibet has always been a part of China and should remain so. If we worked by that logic, Kosovo would still be a part of Serbia, Ukraine would probably be a part of Russia as would Kazakstan. Could Portugal get back Angola and Goa as they held them for 500+ years

Finally is there anyway we in London can hand back the Olympics? Or even better could we trade it for the World Cup. Now that is a competition that is worth hosting.

Tim, London,

I have to say that my opinion of China was of a backward, controlled, communist and repressive society based on the reporting of the media until that is I actually went there and worked.

The Chinese people are friendly and by far the most capatalistic people I have ever met. My dealings with the police (stayed to long for my visa) was one of politeness and helpfulness that stunned me.

In all my dealings with China I have to say that I am most impressed and frankly compared to the UK the Chinese regime is far better; at least you get what they say and are not lied to by greedy, corrupt politicians.

When comparing choice please remember that 80% of people in the UK wanted nothing to do with the Iraq war but our beloved democratic leader just ignored us. Also remember the EU constitution, France got to vote and said NO so the EU politicians simply changed the name to a treaty and said we don't need to ask your opinion.

Before telling others what to do lets clean up our own country

joe, Edinburgh, Scotland

Michael, Bromley, UK

You must be reading different books from the ones I have read. Even the Ancient Chinese talk of Tibet as a foreign land, where Chinese Medicine sprang from along with some of their religious beliefs.

It was seen as strange, mystical and unknown. Hardly part of their own country.

As you know, many Chinese fled to Taiwan to escape from tyranny. Be careful about giving other people's countries away. Next time it could be yours.

joe, Berwichshire, Scotland

I seem to have been attacked for my Northern routes (although not from Sheffield I must say - Sam in London, don't care about blades or Owls) as well as my forthright views.

I feel incredibly patriotic about the UK and I would be hard pressed to attack my own people (i.e. British police) in support of any cause, it is counter productive and illogical. If we were at war on a global scale, I'd be first in line to sign up to defend my country and countrymen, with all their different views. I'd like to bet these "lefty" democracy/anti-China/Tree Huggers would then opt to be contientious objectors at that point - they are all COWARDS.

The problem is, these protesters are so CHOOSY about what to protest about and I dont feel like they have any sense of national unity with the rest of Britain, you know any support for the British Military would be "conditional" on it meeting their moral standards. These people would have been no good to us in WW2.

Bob, Sheffield, UK

My advice, the problem is in China. So, spend £500 on a flight and tell their government not ours – Oh, what, too scared or too broke to go? The Tibet issue is not a British issue (like criminals in our streets, violence, theft, murder etc.), so don't bring it to our streets. What these Tree Huggers are doing is destroying our way of life in selfish martyrdom.

I like the comment (seriously) about East Turkestan from Raymond, which I suggest you all take a look at. This cause doesn't receive the same support as:

a> The CIA funding for this was cut of earlier than that of Tibet
b> They're Muslims, so its not really fashionable here in the west.

Bob, Sheffield, UK

To Stella from Beijing,

What life did China on the whole have in 1950. Tibet is left behind. Let them free.
Can't the Chinese still not get a clue.
Give them freedom!!!!!!

stuart knight, cambridge, UK

Whoever thought about using fire exstinguishers is brilliant ^^, what creativity.

CHris, Nottingham,

What the hell is everyone going on about? Free Tibet?? What do you actually mean? I find it amazing that so many people around the world have suddenly started to care about a dispute that has been largely ignored for the past half century; it is amazing what a bit of press coverage will do for a cause and how simple it is to enlist protesters who one week are banging on about a War, then the next week are vandalising pro abortion doctors cars and now are experts in Chinese politics. These people do not really care nor do they understand the problems and complications there. They are anti-establishment who will use any situation to have a go at the man; kind of like using a dying relative as an excuse to have time of work but spending it on a beach; these people make me sick to the core. But idiots cannot be fully blamed for their actions because they are simply feeding on the media chud thrown to them by the world press to keep the storey going.... what next hey I know FREE WALES!!!!

Steve Williamson, Manchester, UK

i just want to say that dont put politic in olympic. people has to know that its internal problem of china . and the main thing whats tibet before and now . the people ,security of tourism, changes of society, and development . first we see that then after we talk about this kind or nonsense humanright things. thank you

charan, nepal/kathmandu, nepal

The problem lies in the statement...

"an event supposed to promote harmony and peace."

This is as may be but an event being held by China doesn't equate to the overall sentiment... he same goes for any other countries involved in conflicts; USA, UK etc etc.

The UK would be wise to take note, what a great target the Olympics would be for terrorist activity! - I for one will be staying away from the 2012 Olympics.

ChasNDave, Cumbria, UK

Britain and to a certain extent France is showing confusion and lawlessness. How you can attack someone carrying an olympic torch and get away with it, as well as all the other people carrying out assaults against the police and torchbearers, when if you park your car 1 cm too far over a dropped kerb and get fined 250 pounds (by being towed away) is absurd. If the proprotional system of fines was introduced, these protesters should be fined easily 80000 pounds. Is that an deterrent for them ?

Ahmad Miah, London, UK

To all you smug Westerners out there supporting Tibet by shouting and attacking innocent people over the weekend on Sunday and Monday in France, where were you when the West savagely infringed and attacked the countries of the East including China. What about the Opium Wars ? Does no one read history anymore in the UK or is all the history they really know about is football and the Spice girls ? How utterly useless and ignorant all of these Tibetan protesters are.

Brian Hall, London, UK

China is so good at propoganda. Some positive comments on China here refrom the Chineses government. Hush, hush, ynder the carpet. Cold China!!

stuart knight, cambridge, UK

I applaud you Bob, you sound like a real generous, peace loving guy. A credit to modern caring society, if only everyone shared your outlook; imagine what a great place we'd live in...

Live long and prosper!

ChasNDave, Cumbria, UK

Peace to Robert. He goes and wishes peace to everyone and nobody acknowledges it!

However, one does have to question the judgement of anyone who would wish to carry the Olympic Torch even one centimetre in such circumstances. And the judgement of a PM and government who wasted such vast amounts of police time.

Chris Gillibrand, Brussels , Belgium

joe from Berwichshire, Scotland, China is not behaving like an "evil empire". I do not support the Chinese government nor do I make any excuses for it. But what China is interested in is irredentism, not empire building.

Irredentism is reclaiming territory that was historically part of your country or colonised by your people but is now under control of another government.

Taiwan fits that category.

Michael, Bromley, UK

JP,Milano,

Read any history books in high school ? Who took Hong Kong away from China ? Who made the Opium War ? Who put so many countries to be colonies ? Blind ?

Guang, Wuhan, China

Tim O'Toole,Have you ever been to China?Have you ever been to Tibet?How much do you konw about China?I'm a Chinese university student, I've been here for 20 years and at least I can say I konw China much better than you.I read news everyday not only from Chinese media but also from BBC,CNN,so I can say the reports about China are most unture.Maybe you have misunderstood China from the news,the best way of konwing the truth is coming to China and seeing.Seeing is believing. I have many foreign teachers,after they and their relatives came to China they both said that what they saw here was different from what they had heard in their countries.
Since 1950's , the liberation of Tibet,people there have had a complete change of their life.If you think their voice cann't be heard,OK,have a look at old pictures and see what live they had under the Dalai's control before and what they have now.After that can you still say their voice is not be heard?

Stella, Beijing, China

Westerners are shameful and hypocritical! Anyone who infringes on our country is our national enemy! We Chinese will sacrifice everything even our life to protect our country. I’m a young communist party member in university. We are proud of our country and we are proud to be a party member. Communism and capitalism can not exist together peaceful. Our country should put more money on national defense!

KOU, Beijing, China

The Olympics are an absurd and ridiculous display and should be scrapped. When a vile regime like China's is allowed to host this ugly spectacle then it cancels out any good that these 'games' are supposed to achieve.

A Knight, Auckland, New Zealand

Have you even been to China not mention Tibet IN China? How can you talk about witness? The only thing you do is reading the biased media report.
And Chinese have at least spent 20 years to experience China, many have oversea experience as well. I've found most western protesters have NEARLY ZERO knowledge about China and Tibet, yet are shamelessly loud.

bobo, , China

Reading at the phrase "is time china left Tibet..." do any of u guys know.. the flag of tibet is actually given by one of the Chinese emperor as a respect or their religion and human rights.. it is funny that when tibet using this flag to protest... as this flag simply means they r under China's control.... do u know Tibet is part of China since 13th century... ITS DATED BACK SINCE 13TH CENTURY ! ITs funny when ppl r standing up for Tibet... How will u guys react when Manchester tries to be independent from UK and Frankfruit tries to be independent fro German......

HH, Hong Kong,

To: JP, Milano, Italia

Yes is also great to see how the British tries to stop Americans declare independent and fight a WAR against them... why dont they just let them go freely? I wonder.

Ricky, NY,

"Free Tibet" is just another cute little sound bite bleeding hearts and self-proclaimed do-gooders in the West are milking for MONEY and to give meaning to their pathetic lives, others are driven by jealously and racism against China.
Do these individuals know where Tibet is?
"

To prove the point of bandwagon jumping if you use the social networking group "facebook" search for "Free Tibet "which delivers 500+ results for group realted to this. However type in " Free East Turkestan" (who have the same claim of indepedence) and only 3 results appear. Proof that "Free Tibet" is more of a trendy brand than a cause and people now very little about Cina and the issues

raymond, the norf, uk

In ancient times, the warring Greek states suspended their battles when they were attending the Games.
Let's have a truce this August between the communist regime and the activists. No protests and no human rights abuse, and just enjoy the healthy sporting competition.
Let's fantasize a Tibetan athlete, representing India or Nepal, winning, like Jesse Owens did at the Nazi Games.

Brien, Singapore,

It is nice to see that the world cares about the issues
in Tibet at this time. To be fair, the disgust towards
genocide and violence should not be placed on every
single Chinese person that has ever lived. I'm sure
that if they were better informed they could make
more reasonable assessments. Furthermore, let's
not all assume that there aren't some out there who
oppose their government, but perhaps can't openly
express these views. Let's not be naive about how
much power the Chinese government has over its
people. I find it absurd when people go on to argue
that the Olympics and the issues surrounding Tibet
are two different things and that perhaps it is not the
most 'appropriate' platform to promote human rights.
What is the best platform then? When is it a good
time to demand that innocent people aren't killed,
tortured or threatened? I think it's time for China to
wake up and realize that saving face is no longer a
priority and that these atrocities must be stopped.

Georgina, London, England

The idea that the Olympics are some kind of pristine Vestal above the grime of politics (or drugs) has never been true, in ancient times or in their modern reincarnation. They weren't a good idea in 500 BCE and they were a worse idea in the 1890's when Baron de Coubertin decided that France lost its war with Prussia because his countrymen were too out of shape.

The modern Olympics were never above nationalism. They were all about it.

De Coubertin hoped that rekindling the Olympic flame would light a fire under French youth so that they could take on the Germans (and the English if need be), who were far more devoted to sports and physical culture than his countrymen.

I was a writer of documentaries and articles on the Olympics for more than two decades, and the only universal truth I ever gleaned from them is that hypocracy reigns atop a trinity of three supporting vices: money, nationalism, and drugs. It has always been this way, and it always will be this way.

Mark, washington, USA

London 2012 will have NO problems.

British culture and nation are admired and respected around the world for their fairness and correctness. This contrasts to the horrors we witness daily in Tibet.

JP, Milano, Italia

Peace to everyone!

Robert, Kitchener, Canada

The comments on here from those from UK just proves how well the British government has succeeded in pulling the wool over its people eyes. Free the British 'media' now!

Gao Pan, Chengdu, China

It is not a question of a parade being ruined. The Chinese government is a regime that should not be supported, either economically or in sporting terms. Britain and the US take a moral highground on countries like Iraq but not China. This new relationship with China is comparable to the allied relationship with the USSR immediately after and during the 2nd world war, ignore any attrocities in the name of political convenience.

Phil Western, Arequipa, Peru

Interesting the comments from apparently Chinese people. Well now I'll look at the label and stop buying Chinese products.

Maybe if others did that it could hurt their economy - Unlikely.

Tibet Minerals:-

There are more than 90 known mineral types in Tibet. Total reserves of 26 of these have been verified, with that of 11 ranking among the top five in China by province. The region's 2,500 square kilometers of chromite deposits, concentrated along the Lake Banggong Co to the Nujiang River rift zone in northern Tibet and along the Yarlung Zangbo River rift zone, are the most in China. The Norbusa Chromite Mine in Shannan Prefecture has become a chromite production base. Tibet's prospective lithium deposits are among the most in the world and the region serves as China's lithium production base. Prospective copper and gypsum reserves rank second in China, boron, magnesite, barite and arsenic third, mica and peat fourth, and kaolin fifth.

So Tibet has no chance of freedom.

Doug, London, UK

It's nice to live in a country where people can demonstrate against injustice.
Something that Tibetans are denied.

GJB, Slough, Berkshire

Trailing the Olympic torch around the globe is a nice thought but illustrates that the International Olympic Committee have failed to understand that Olympics are truly a political event. Although a great Olympics fan myself, I suspect that the Summer games in China are going to be beset by major disruptions that will make the Olympic torch fiasco pale into insignificance. Of course, maybe the Chinese authorities will be better prepared than the UK was.

Michael, London,

Hello Bob

So the death of innocents and human rights does not matter and no one cares? People care enough to give up a days work [and pay] to protest and have their voices heard on behalf of others who do not have either the choice or the opportunity.

As for the 'sandal wearing lefty' ; a bit of a stereotype don't you think? And no one really believes that any more. A bit like the stereotype of the pig ignorant northerner...

Kev, Baghdad,

I am Chinese, grew up in China and have lived in many countries. I get news from both western and Chinese sources, but I have long concluded that neither are trustworthy. The media here reports what their readers want to hear, the media in China reports what the government want their people to hear. Either way, they are full of intentional or unintentional bias.

The difference is that the Chinese know their media is not trustworthy. We either ignore them, or are discretional of what to believe. While the westerners have the illusion that they have heard the full truth from their newspaper and TV, and start to believe they are so superior and well informed that they can tell China how to run our country.

The reality is, the westerners are as brainwashed as what they believe the Chinese are.

Tomorrow, Princess Diana's Death will be Page One, and soon Tibet will be forgotten by most of the readers here as the topic fades out of fashion.

Geja, Toronto, Canada

People from the west :
"Free Tibet, Free chinese people, their government are evil'
Majority of Chinese around the world:
' We don't need your help, don't pretend to be saint, our lives are much much better than 30 years ago! We are getting happier and you outsiders are actually destroying it'

What i saw from those people so-called 'fighting for orther's right' were just bunch of people trying to tell others how high moral standard they have, trying to bring the whole world to hate chinese people. Right, this is really helpful for chinese, to bring more extremists in tibet to raise the violence level against the local government. Do you really think protesters in china are that peaceful when you watching tele that these tibetan protesters can do anything to achieve their goal??

bruce, durham, Uk

Poor Londoners. First, blinded by Carla Bruni, then out-torched by la ville de la lumière. Once more, Paris leaving London in the foggy shadows. C'est la vie, London, c'est la vie.

Eugene, heidelberg, germany

Why France people said IOC's choice was wrong?
Haha, what a selfish country? Don't forget it is Paris who lose the opportunity but Beijing won!!!
Shame on France!!!

We don't welcome you to Beijing, neither your President, or your people. We don't care whether you boycott or not.

China did correctly on Tibet issue, our people support our government. Our policy will not change just because your boycott. We will not let anybody to seperate our home country.

What a pity for your English and Franch! you know nothing but cheat by your media and Dalai.

Olympic game is less important than our country's integrity. Don't waste your time to interfere Chinese issue!!!

Tina, Hong Kong,

"Free Tibet" is just another cute little sound bite bleeding hearts and self-proclaimed do-gooders in the West are milking for MONEY and to give meaning to their pathetic lives, others are driven by jealously and racism against China.
Do these individuals know where Tibet is? Where were they all these years earlier, like back in 2001?
They have no real jobs and qualifications so for a source of fulfilment and income they jump on various bandwagons for "causes" they care little about and which are rooted in furthering Western interests.
Human Rights "activists" are the most despicable and sickening types of people to walk the planet.Everywhere and anywhere in the world where there is conflict, misery, hardship and destitution these individuals THRIVE

Come 2012 London Olympics, China will be richer, more powerful and have greater influence. If they want they can enforce a boycott of London 2012 as defiance against Western tyranny and oppression.How would you Tibet lovers like that?

Sunil, Kandy,

Ke, Qingdao, China

"The comments on here from those from UK just proves how well the British government has succeeded in pulling the wool over its people eyes. Free the British 'media' now! "

Ke- what on earth do you mean ? According to Chinese media the London relay was very successful and only a tiny minority of Tibetan "splitists" caused disruption.

Therefore how on earth can the British Government pull the wool over our eyes when we were all sending up cheers to the glorious flame ?

I hope someone isn't doubting their own Chinese media ?!

You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Either we're brainwashed by our anti-Chinese government or we were happily cheering the flame !

In actual fact you'll find that at anyone time a lot of us Brits disagree with our government. So don't flatter Mr. Brown so much that he can brainwash us all !

Luis, London, UK

I'm french and happy to know that problems in Tibet give international protestation
Tristan from Brest Britany

Tristan, BREST, FRANCE BZH

sorry bob...'the jobless and the hopeless'. what prey tell is taking up your time on monday afternoons that is so much more important and fulfilling then protesting cultural genocide? what do you hope for? The blades back in the Premiership and Britain for the British?

sam, london,

It is funny to see how those who hardly know anything about the situation in China and Tibet other than those reported by the one-sided western media speaks the most and even having the guts to protect about it.

The world is rallying against China? I doubt China would even flinch.

SY, Cardiff, UK

So the olympics serves a purpose at last: bringing the world's attention to the plight of an illegally occupied country. For that reason, and thatg reason alone can this worldwide waste of money be justified.

Gerald Messoud, bradford, uk

To Simon from England:

An important difference between us and the Chinese is that we are free to browse the internet, post comments like these, and get all sorts of dissenting opinions from different media sources. We are able to look at the problem from both sides and decide our position with more objectivity.

Mainland Chinese don't have that right, the fundamental right of free speech. The media and the internet are censored in China, and their government regularly imprisons dissidents or journalists that disagree with the official story.

For this reason I support what the French protesters have achieved today, a totalitarian and repressive dictatorship like China should not be allowed to host these games, which are really a symbol of peace and understanding. I look forward to protesting myself when the torch comes to Buenos Aires.

Andres, Buenos Aires, Argentina

I have the feeling that many of the comments posted here aren't from genuine members of the public whatever country they may be from.

So, if I'm not mistaken - and I hope I am - anyone posting propaganda from China or it's allies - note the lack of censorship, note that I can post this and you can post whatever you want to - it's up to the reader to make their own mind up about what is real. Sure it's not as easy as believing everything you're fed by the media, but I know what I prefer.

PS - The Times, I'm still not giving my real email address.

Mark, midlands, uk,

The right to protest is a precious right. But it does NOT give the protestors the right to deny others the enjoyment of the torch parade. If you disagree with this then you are the worst kind of dictator and enemy of freedom!

Andy, London, UK

Joe in Berwick

We are friends with america, the biggest bullies on this planet.

Count the number of countries invaded by the US since the war the count the number China has invaded...

Garry, Manchester, UK

Here here Simon,

Chinese are brainwashed, we are brainwashed...

the rest here are fools living on media hype

Garry, Manchester, UK

To those who say the protests weren't peaceful enough, they ought to remember that the "mainstream" media in Britain and America doesn't cover peaceful protests. Unless protesters kick up a fuss, coverage will be zero.

Peaceful protests take place all the time, but we never hear about them.

Blame "The Tabloid Times" and the rest of the corporate-owned tabloid media for making peaceful protesting a complete waste of time.

The apathy of the British people is also to blame. Peaceful protests WILL get covered, but only if VAST numbers turn out.

Michael, Bromley, UK

Chinese are being brained washed.

Okay.

I would like to ask, are you being brain washed at this moment ? Listening to what the press says, is right ? "The press only report facts?. " How sure are you ? Think again.
This website is very reliable, Yes. In most stories. But when it becomes political, how reliable can it get? At the end of the day, who's got the power ?

The world has many dark sides. is unimaginable.

"People" please keep an open mind. These political issues are too dark for us to judge.

We say the Chinese are brained washed, but who knows if we are being brain washed ourselves?

Simon, Bournemouth, England

Viva la France! Well done!

I love the explainations of Chinese that the real fire is burning hidden and only replica is being carried. That shows the real picture, shame about Tibet is also kept hidden.

SF now it is your turn. Everybody's watching.

Michal, London, UK

China, what are you thinking?

The grotesque stunts that the Chinese authorities are pulling will do nothing for their international reputation. You will become an international joke.

Who wants to be friends with a bully?

I sincerely hope the Olympics is not just a smokescreen before another invasion of another unfortunate soveriegn nation. Taiwan will be suitably worried.

You will probably notice that the posts that support the Chinese occupation of Tibet are by people who are Chinese or of Chinese ancestry. That is because any neutral observer has to conclude that China is acting like a ruthless evil empire.

To make matters worse, we all know that the Chinese people themselves are treated to a diet of media half-truths and lies. Read any history of China over the last fifty years and you will see just how low humanity can go.

The Chinese people are wonderful, intelligent and honourable. You are being lied to by your leaders.

Yes our leaders lie, but we know it.

joe, Berwichshire, Scotland

The French TV stopped the coverage shortly after the start. This was a very black day for Sarkozy. As the expert on Sky said after 2 hours of a breakdown of coverage "We have not seen any thing like this since the censorship in the 60's". I decided to go out and look for my self. I went to the front of the City Hall. Around me the violence between Tibet exiles and Chinese government supporters kicked off. Then the French police stepped in. I moved to the Riverside to get a better view of the route and the front of City Hall with its banner supporting freedom. I witnessed the enormity of the riot police operation. But despite having Tibetan flags around me the police were convinced by the crowd not to wade in as the protesters were French and it was their right. The memories of the day are the extinguished torch held in the coach and the faces of the Chinese security guards safely kept in the coach were they could not man handle anyone. I am so glad I don’t live in China.

Colin, paris, France

OK, here's a little experiment: I'm sending this e-mail to The Times, just to say that China's treatment of Tibet sucks big time. At the same time, I'm sending the same e-mail to a daily newspaper in China. Let's see which one will get published first (or at all); I'll keep you informed.

fabrice, le havre, france

I do not know why people where surprised olympic movvement gave the games to China, they sold the games in 1984, all they idolise now is the dollar

mick, Glasgow, Scotland

Good on the French - and shame on this increasingly fascist UK that tried everything to stifle protest.

Chris, London,

Homer, I'm reading this now from my hotel room in China. Yes, the BBC World tv channel keeps blacking out whenever the protests are mentioned, but Timesonline and the BBC website are still open at present.

Ryan , London,

i came from tibet and i am tibetan.Tibet belong to china,no problem.Some person say "free tibet" just because they are misguarded.They should come to tibet to see themself!!!

guangrong, Nanjng, china

I have spent much time in Tibet (as a Tibetan Buddhist visitor), speak both Chinese and some Tibetan, and have watched the (sickening) video coverage of the riots - a mob of Tibetans dragging an elderly Chinese man off his motorcycle and beating him to death with rocks, an interview with a young woman whose mother and four co-workers were herded into an upstairs room and burned to death, footage of monks kicking in the doors of Chinese-owned stores...

At the time of my visit to Lhasa in 2006, the Tibetan people seemed to have all the religious and economic freedom anyone could reasonably want (in complete contrast to the impression you'd get from the Western media) . They attended monasteries, teachings, and ceremonies, spoke their own language, many of them had successful businesses, etc. While I have not visited since 2006. my impression is that these disturbances are due to racist jealousy of the Chinese, whose point of view I believe we should listen to more closely

Martin Mellish, Port Townsend, WA, USA

It's so misguided and insulting to say they've be brainwashedwhen any Chinese support their own country. It just enforce the view that so little the world expecially the west know about China and Chinese people. They actuclly know alot more about their own goverment than people in the west give them credit to. When it come to Tibet, how many of you really know the history about Tibet and China? Does any body really make a effect to find out or just choose to ingore it? It is tempting to believe to a monk than to a comunist goverment. But don't forget they are all just human being and they burdern with both good and bad it came with being human being.
How many people really care about Tibet or human ringht in China? The left say they care because it make them sound and look great. The right say it because it is just another way of stopping China advance and they care non about haman right what so ever. The whole thing turn the Chineseagainst thewest,turn the clock back 20 years.

QL, London, UK

I wonder if the french would stand the media calling their rioters who set things on fire ( in 2005) "protesters" and after these "protests" go and negotiate to the needs and wishes of these people as a direct result of these "protests"

Raymond, norf, UK

“The Olympic flame represents the positive values that Man has always associated with fire,” the International Olympic Committee grandly boasts. “[It] transmits a message of peace and friendship amongst peoples.

May the protests continue till everyone understands this simple concept.

Steve, Perth, Australia

This is wonderful news. First London, now Paris. I wish it was coming here. Gold medals to all the activists! Lumps of coal to the torch bearers. Shame to the Communist Party of China.

Shaun Smith, Toronto, Canada

just wait for the people in beijing to put out londons flame for iraq, and how westerners ruined our historic artifacts

David, Weymouth, Dorset

Killing is Not a Sport.
Torture is Not a Sport.
China is a dangerous country. Not that Chinese people are bad. But Chinese leaders are deceiving the people all the time. Remember Tianamen Square. Chinese leaders only showed only the images of how soldiers got killed. Not students. They are doing the same thing. Chinese people should try to see through the games that their leaders play. It is not going to be good for them, nor for the whole world. I am a Tibetan, I feel it all the time. I have nothing but pity for Chinese people.

Lobsang Yeshi, Falls church, USA

Nice one France!!

Phill, Wirral, England

May I just commend the Times for being open and showing a balanced view. Not refraining from using words like "militants" or "vent" when describing the protests.
I believe that had the demonstrations been peaceful, the Chinese people would have understood them better. It is very ill-informed of people to draw comparisons between Tianammen Sq and Lhasa... and lying down on the road in such a squabbling fashion, really makes a mockery of the truly peaceful and tragic demonstrations of Tianammen Sq. which had a much more forceful effect.
This kind of riotous behaviour surrounding a symbol of peace and unity just serves to make a mockery of the West and alienate the citizens of China. Their dignity, more than the pride of the Chinese government, is at stake here.
I'd say China might as well "free" Tibet..The Dalai Lama must be holding his head in his hands - the protesters ARE behaving like (loutish) gatecrashers in his name and the name of his people. How insulting. I am ashamed.

John, London,

The majority of anti-China protestors here do not really care about Tibet, Dafur, Myanmar, or human rights in China. They are here to protest against China and the Chinese people. Tibet happens to be a trendy slogan du jour, just like Falun Gong or air pollution was before.

What they are really expression is a fundamental fear and paranoia towards the rise of China. A successful China is a direct challenge to the western ideology and value system.

China has no human rights, China has no democracy or free election, China does not have free press, and China is still ruled by the evil Communists... yet such an "awful" state has managed to lift 200 million people out of poverty, created a 300 million strong happy middle class, build a robust capitalism that is inseparable from the world economy, and establish a great world power of this century.

The west does not want to see that. This is not a protest for Tibet, but an ideology war against China. To which I say, Bring It On!

Geja, Toronto, Canada

I'm SO proud to be french!
Yet it is not as easy to develop a democracy as developing an economy (and a part of the Chinese economy is a fake, with their under-estimated currency)!
Let's boycott ALL the made-in-China products!

François, Paris,

Well done to all protesters involved, and those that I hope will protest in the rest of the Torch's stops this year!

As for the athletes involved, I understand that this is probably the one chance that they have to achieve their live's goal, but each of them will be making a moral statement by taking part or not, as will all of the world's politicians.

If we are really going to make the world a better place, we cannot justify allowing any country to go unchallenged on it's human rights record, China or otherwise.

Brijit, Paris/Bedford, France/UK

What is the likelihood that anybody in China is even allowed to read this news article or the ensuing comments? The Chinese government strictly controls access to the internet.

That in itself is reason to protest.

homer, Tucson, Arizona, USA

First, bravo Paris. If I were in the UK I would have tried to get to London to protest at a situation the world has ignored for 50 years.

Second, Iraq is not similar - it's a badly-run and illegally started operation yes, and carried out for dubious purposes but the Western powers have no intention of staying there any longer than they have to.

Third, the Chinese 'success' in economic terms is being won at the expense of keeping the great majority of the people in poverty. And yes, I have lived there and seen this at first hand.

Fourth, this is for Bob of Sheffield, although his comments are beneath contempt:

First they came for the Communists,
- but I was not a communist so I did not speak out.
Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists,
- but I was neither, so I did not speak out.
Then they came for the Jews,
- but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out.
And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me. (Pastor Martin Niemöller)

Graham Howellsw, Brasília, Brazil

And rightly so. This is neither the time nor the place to protest the current situation between China and Tibet. Lets not take anything away from the people that have dedicated their lives to represent their country.
If you care so much about Tibet go and protest outside givernment buildings though it would be the first time I would see a large scale protest like this outside Chinas offices in London; I hope that we are not protesting about something that has had alot of media attention!!!!

Steve Williamson, Manchester, UK

This is a sad day for all those who wanting to recognise and celebrate the efforts made by athletes worldwide. Further, as democratic countries we respect the notion of freedom of speech however such unnecessary extreme actions only undermine our image to countries/people aspiring to embrace democracy.
I hope demonstrators keep this carefull balance in check and continue to be constructive in their methods regarding the issues surrounding Tibet.

Giles, London, UK

"Is it odd that you categorise as "Lefty", protestors who are complaining about a communist country?"

People love playing "blame the Lefty". I doubt they know what it means, but I suppose it sounds cool or something. To me, an attitude like that screams "I'm totally ignorant!".

Good on the demonstrators. At least they don't just sit around and whine.

M.R., Stockport,

Hey, guys, Carnival? I know you had been deeply disappointed for you thought that China would have suppressed the riot cruelly but it didn't. Your media supplied the fake news intending to satisfy you gluttony but which were not enough. I've followed this site for years, while uncountable Rwandan & Iraqis had been killed but had never seen you guys so exciting! Do you really care the life of the couple of the monks? Put your hand on your chest, be honest: do you expect Chinese Gvnt kill more Tibetans? I have belived in western democracy, but this time you made me sick!

chen, beijing, china

Looks like the French have beaten the British at the extinguish-the-torch event . . .

pleroma, Helsinki, Finland

Going to be interesting to see what happens when it reaches the States.

Lee, poole,

I have Chinese family.

If Western media is so biased, why do the Chinese not know about the mass protests in London and Paris?

They think these were minor demonstrations by violent 'separatists', whereas when I was there I saw many thousands of British protesters who love Tibet and want them to be free, and all were peaceful yet very emotional.

I love China, but feel the people are being deceived too strongly by their own state media, and are being led to strong anti-West and anti-Tibetan feelings by this false nationalist rhetoric.

If this persists as China grows ever stronger, the mistrust bred by these tactics may lead to a new cold war.

Mark, London, UK

"we Chinese value more a better living standard rather a quick but week democracy! China is too big and she can not afford to plunge herself into a chaotic place"

Yet another example of how brainwashed Chinese citizens are by their government.

Tim O'Toole, London,

You can't argue that sport and politics should be kept seperate when a condition of the Chinese bid for the 2008 Olympics was that they would make a significant effort to clean up their human rights issues...you can't pick and choose when the two are intertwined.
I go to school with the daughters of some very senior Chinese officials (they don't use their fathers' names as they are so senior) and they admit, when their parents aren't around of course, that the Tibet issue is unacceptable and is a disgrace at the same time as being proud of the efforts of their parents to lift over a billion people out of poverty.

Lucy, London,

I totally agree with Christian, York. I feel ashamed of what is happening in Paris !!

Jerome, Paris, France

China is wrong wrong wrong, fact! Its time China left Tibet, and the UN took over a transition, this is what people should be supporting now. China has lost its right to govern and should be ashamed of its slow pre meditated annihilation of a complete race which i think has gone beyond crimes to humanity. Shame on China!!!.

philip, oxford, uk

I thinnk most of those who protested are either self-righteous hypocrites, or blindly believing in media opinion. Similarly people believed that invading Iraq was about weapon of mass destruction etc etc. It is a matter of spin and supposedly 'neutral' media coverage. This is sadly the world we live in.

GFH, Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia

I will take my stand and will not watch a single game of Beijing Olympics.

I admire those who have protested the "torch of shame" so far. I have nothing against the Chinese people but their government policies.

Chinese as a nation in the past has been humiliated by foreign occupation and they should know how other people feel toward Chinese occupation and aggression.

Chuck, Texas, USA

China is wrong wrong wrong, fact! Its time China left Tibet, and the UN took over a transition, this is what people should be supporting now. China has lost its right to govern and should be ashamed of its slow pre meditated annihilation of a complete race which i think has gone beyond crimes to humanity. Shame on China!!!.

jong jing, beijing, china

Joanna Lumley and Nick Clegg addressed a crowd of thousands of people in Argyle Square yesterday when an alternative Tibetan Olympic torch was lit. How come this is not being reported? A police officer I spoke to estimated there were about 20.000 pro Tibet protesters there.

Anna , Hastings, England

I have to say that I am absolutely disgusted at the unbalanced media coverage of both the Tibetan issue in general and the torch procession in particular in Western media. Living in Northern China for the last number of months, but subscribing to one of my national newspapers, I have been able to see vividly what is essentially an idealogical battle fought out on both sides, waged through the world's media. While I can absolutely confirm that Chinese media shows the Tibetan situation in one light, to accuse them of one-sidedness is laughable in the face of almost blanket anti-Chinese coverage in Western media. What percentage of the overall crowd witnessing the torch procession were involved in fracas in Paris or London? To have the UK and US, after their illegal invasion of Iraq, point the finger at China over human rights is hilarious. As for the French, I suppose it is a welcome distraction from their own mismanagement of their ethnic minorities in the banlieues. Disgraceful.

David, Dublin, Ireland

Vive La France!
Time to stop kowtowing to Peking!

robert duquesne, Mental Mowbray, Leics, England

I object to the term 'tree hugger' I have never been to a protest before this year and I went becasue I am angry at the blatent human rights abuses and racism evident in China's actions in Tibet.

I would also like to pint out China agreed to implement reform and secure greater human rights BEFORE the games as part of their conditions for holding them.

How can anyone aquate the violence in Tibet, Xinjiang and the imprisonment of Hu Jia with improving Human rights?

The Chinese governmenmt must open talks with the Dalai Lama and stop the oppression of Tibetans.

Only they wont because they have already put thmselves in a hole by calling him a terrorist and won't negotiate with him.

Ironically: much of thr olympics problems are China's own fault: what a shame.

John, York, United Kingdom

Thankfully Britain is a democracy that respects human rights. Not only have the protestors a right to protest, but they are right to do so. You cannot let a country that tramples all over human rights hijack the Olympic ideal for a cynical public relations exercise. China needs to be embarrassed on the international stage for what it is doing. All democrats should offer their support to the Tibetan protestors.

Ian Kilroy, Cork, Ireland

I think these people are shameless in disrupting the torch relay. They go to extremes to sabotage this great symbol of unity and festivity of humans just for their own purpose. More ironically maybe some of them even don’t know the score.

Kong, Guangzhou , PR China

The IOC did not 'allow' China to have the Olympics. That is a condescending statement. The IOC members, representing the countries of the world, voted to have the 2008 games staged in China. It is a majority vote - a democratic vote in a democratic process. Ought we not respect and accept that? Perhaps some would dispute or find it distasteful, but perhaps too, the majority of other nations in the world do not think so?

A suggestion too, for those who truly wish to have a better appreciation of the Chinese pysche - read the non-English news media from Taiwan, Hong Kong and Singapore. These are credible sources, and indeed, would provide cyou with a better comprehensive understanding of what makes the Chinese people click. Have a more balanced understanding and view.

Edwin Heng, Singapore, Singapore

Minnie asks how many millions of Chinese we're willing to give refuge to - this would probably be easier to answer if we knew how many Chinese are currently in the country? (I'm sure the Home Office would have this figure at its fingertips, but without troubling them, if the various workers (some permanent, some very temporary) at my place of employment in London are taken as a benchmark, it's approx 15% of the workforce at present. Multiplied up, we must surely already be giving "refuge" aka employment/housing to millions of Chinese? BTW Minnie, don't worry about work permits/visas - I understand that the Government has decided that these will not be required at all (no, not even nominally) from Sept 08 (part of its drive to reduce red tape in Government.)

Dave, London,

I'm just peeved the French did better at stopping the flame, even if it was on a Monday afternoon.

Oh,

And Bob - busy are we?

james, London,

Ok,

Is it odd that you categorise as "Lefty", protestors who are complaining about a communist country?

Andrew, Newcastle upon Tyne,

To Tim O'Toole, London


The comments on here from those from UK just proves how well the British government has succeeded in pulling the wool over its people eyes. Free the British 'media' now!

Ke, Qingdao, China

To those who think that Chinese who do not toe the western line must be brainwashed, don't be silly. Do you seriously think the Chinese in mainland China can proficiently articulate their views in English on the London Times website? We are well informed ethnic Chinese living OUTSIDE China, with allegiance to our own non-China countries, but who read enough Western and Chinese newspapers and news network by the United States, United Kingdom, Taiwan, and Singapore, and with a clearer appreciation and knowledge of Chinese history, culture, and who have visited China sufficient times to have seen its progress, to be able to have a truly comprehensive understanding of issues involving China.

I would strongly recommend that those who are truly interested in China issues to expand your readership and viewership of media beyond that in English - go browse and view the Chinese media from Taiwan, Singapore, and even mainland China itself.

Edwin Heng, Singapore, Singapore

Can we see some pictures of the counter-protesters please? Or is this going to stay biased against those who support China.

Vin, Danville, USA

Olympic Games should not be connect whit politics.
It's a media that combines our human-beings to be a family.
Let's enjoy it instand of be used by some politician with evil intentions！

thury, Shenyang, PRC

Chinese people like peace.

Gao Pan, Chengdu, Sichuan, China

Im with Bob... its got nothing to do with the West, just like we had no place to invade Iraq!

Only people with a profound misunderstanding of the Chinese seem to be raising there involvement through a huge media created frenzy

Implicating the Olympics in this issue is ludicrous! It is an issue held entirely under China's jurisdiction and who are we with our Western imterpretation of what is right and wrong to impart our belief system upon them

Ding Chavez, Manchester, Cheshire

I read that French TV stopped broadcasting as soon as demonstrators apeared on the scene infront of the Olympic torch carriers, are we getting Chinese censorship methods used in Europe now? What were they thinking off?

Markus Fankhauser, Muenster, Germany

Trust the french to be able to pull of a prtest on a Monday Afternoon!!!!

Steve Williamson, Manchester, UK

Its risky business being a protester for a just cause these days, the police come at you with all their might. It's safer to be a yob on a drinking binge, you just get a warning and are sent home.

Anand, Reading, UK

Viv London - I wrote it during a coffee break.

Andy Loughborough - Your point is irrelevant, I don't care because it doesn't affect me in the slightest - this is pure honesty, Tibet has been part of China in one way or another for 600 years and no-one has done anything but bemoan China about it. I don't give enough to charity either if you must know, but I help where I can.

Jonathan London - I don't feel ashamed at all, I just don't see how violence contitutes a credible protest.

Lita London - I am fortunate to work in a FTSE 100 company, I earn more than the average national wage and I pay more in tax than the average British citizen, so there is my proportional right to have a view in my democracy. What did you last contribute? Your choice appears to be throwing stones at British poilce; mine is giving money to the Government for the betterment of OUR society - to hell with the rest of the world.

Camille London - I am very well informed on this situation thanks.

Bob, Sheffield, UK

Notice how our feeble police force totally over reacts to Tibetan protesters trying to put out flame, but if these were Muslims screaming 'Kill Westerns' they do nothing at all.

Dan, London, England

Democray in the raw! Of course its not perfect and we could debate all day wether either the protesters' or police actions were appropriate.

But thats missing the point - which is that in both the UK and France protests did take place and were reported in full by the media, which would never happen in a dictatorship such as China

The only real question here is the judgement of the IOC in allowing The Games to be held in China at all.

Roll on more protests in other democratic nations.

Jason, Oxford, UK

These 'Human Rights Activists' are proving that they too can act violently to achieve their objectives.

I also note how aggressive the reaction from these ‘people of conviction’ is to alternative viewpoints in the comments above.

Is there no better way to demonstrate disapproval than the methods used by tyrannies?

Steve, Bournemouth, UK

The so called athletes and minor celebs who carry the torch should feel ashamed of their part in this Chinese charade,

What a joke these Olympics and what a bunch of clowns the IOC look now

Richard K, Nottingham,

The Chinese Govn has been using these games to promote itself for the last year. Its basically more about PR than sport , lets be realistic.

We now have some criticism , and I hear that the games are 'just about peace' and we 'shouldnt mix it with politics'. This is so hypocritical it makes me feel sick.

Steve, Dresden,

A new olympic sport has been invented. Worthwhile cause, no doping scandals, good television. If the Chinese had any sense, they'd join in.

tim holden, budleigh salterton,

Lot of views on here talking about hypocracy well maybe still doesnt excuse what is going on in Tibet and people need to stand for these types of issues as much as they can ,China should never have had the olympics in the first place what did the so called authorities expect was going to happen . Well done portestors an dont listen to the middle class as long as I can have my two weeks in Tuscany a year I dont care Brigade as they know nothing but they like writing facist opnions on message boards

Tom Hammond, London, UK

if the China's leadership is so disgusting as the westerners describes, how China has become an engine for the world economy, and potentially superpower of the world?! At this moment, we Chinese value more a better living standard rather a quick but week democracy! China is too big and she can not afford to plunge herself into a chaotic place, which surely will bring the whole world a negative impact!

Zhang, Kunming, China,

I grew up in China and have been living in Europe for 16 years. I have never believed Chinese propagada machine until now thanks to Ms Macartney. I supported students' movement in Tiananmen square and now I have to say that the coverage of western media regarding Tibet issue is no better that the Chinese propagada machine, just they are from the other side. I go back to China every year and can clearly see the improvement although it's far from perfect. My family and friends are kept informed. We talk on the phone every week. The people here are bombarded every day with negative reports about China . These are so much like what I heard from Chinese propagada about western world. Give Chinese government some credtis, will you? They have to feed 1,3 billion people. I believe generous British/European/American people raised £125 million for Life Aid, but this wouldn't be enough for a single meal for 1,3 billion people. How many millions Chinese are you willing to give refuge?

Minnie, Birmingham , UK

Frankly I find this display of arrogant, hypocritical thuggery completely disgusting. Yesterday's events were no better.

The fact is that the majority of these protestors haven't the faintest idea of what the issues surrounding Tibet really are, they choose to jump on any protest bandwagon and come away from their "selfless" acts feeling self-righteous, self-satisfied and holier-than-thou.

Christian, York,

What's happened to the olympics these days? Large protests in major world cities. The olympic flame (the ultimate symbol of the games) has to be temporarily exstinquished. Giving the games to a country in the first place who is not yet worthy of the honour.

Hyprocrisy, economics and politics seem to fuel the games now. These are not the games of the ancient Greeks. The spirit has left the games.

Douglas Cornish, Ottawa, Canada

I have a Chinese friend who studies in London. For several months she was like many of the Chinese who have commented on here - that we do not understand how China is, that the western media misrepresents China. Slowly but surely, by finding out from the internet and sources not open in China, she realised the true situation about the lack of openness and human-rights abuses in China and does not want to return. Hopefully, as more Chinese travel, more will learn the truth, but I have to say, perhaps an influx of visitors for the Games will help?

Charlie, Munich,

Peaceful protest not intimidating other is a human right. Anarchy - which is what these protests actually look like to the unaffiliated observer is not a human right.

Most of these protestors have interest in seeing what actually happens in China, let alone visit there and see for themselves. Last month hundreds of Shanghai residents peacefully demonstrated over plans for the airport link to be extended through their district - no violence - no arrests! Last week in Eastern Kham (Western Sichuan) there were violent protests, which brought about an equally violent police response to return law-and-order to society.

It may seem repressive for the police to interviene anywhere - but NEVER forget that they are there to protect all of us from anarchy! Faced with the choice of living in a society that tries only to be positive, and, an anarchistic 'free for all' - I'd choose the former.

To the chinese the DL's group is a terrorist in the same way Farq is to Columbia.: not peaceful.

Rob, Swansea, UK

Well done for putting out the flame. Why couldn't we have achieved that in Britain? What is wrong with our country?

This is symbolism at its very finest.

By the way, do love the reference to the Greens Party in the main article. How does one join?

Kat, Vienna,

How many have truly visited Tibet? What exactly is happening in Tibet? Compare the living standards in Tibet (current Tibetan Autonomous Region in China) and Dharansala, compare the livings standards in Tibet now and Tibet past, look at the number of monastries and lamas, and all funded by state money, look at the shopping streets and schools available, look at the transportation network. If anything, I would laud the Chinese for having brought Tibet from the dark ages into the modern world within one generation. Yet, the irony of it all lies here too - for in doing so, they have done away with the 'oh-so-quaint' Shangri-la priced the world all over for its pure isolation and basic primitive untouched lifestyle, and exposed the Tibetans to the ills of modern society - inflation, wealth, stress. And that is the root cause of the demonstrations, quite similar to that of Tiananmen. It's not about independence/religion, but a dissatisfaction with inflation, division of wealth, and stress.

Edwin Heng, Singapore, Singapore

I'm sick of all these tree hugging hippy losers and their Free Tibet sloganeering. They weren't shouting 'Free Iraw' when Saddam invaded in 1991. Oh no, they were on his side. I support China over this. Tibetans are not a majority in Tibet anyway. And is it worth picking a fight with a country who could be an ally in the fight against Islamic terrorism? the protestors have only increased my support for China.

Craig , Liverpool, UK

I feel the need to remind everybody of something a man from Liverpool, UK and his three friends once said,

"Youd better free your mind instead...
But if you go carrying pictures of chairman mao...
You aint gonna make it with anyone anyhow..."

Dean - Shanghai, Shanghai, China

Protesters are trampling on the world peace-loving people's human rights.

Nuke, Daqing, China

I bet the Chinese will take a grusome revenge on Tibet after the Olympics..

Now they are treating them really well in comparison.

Poor, poor Tibet, I feel for you...

Olly, Bath,

@ Mark, Gateshead

Spot on, the single most important remark among all the comments.
Sad, but certainly very true, we are no better than China, looking at Iraq is sufficient to make that crystal clear.

John, Zurich, Switzerland

Yin from London no, I doubt the Chinese will appreciate anything. Tibetans, on the other hand, might indeed appreciate support for the unlawful persecution at the hands of China (which you have apparently been brainwashed to believe has never happened). In case you didn't notice, it is the Tibetans that the human rights activists are currently protesting on behalf of, not the Chinese. I wouldn't say we don't *care* about the Chinese, but I certainly have no interest in supporting a national pride that depends on illegal occupation of other countries or the wilful ignorance of the population as to what its government is doing. And before anyone points out that 'my' country doesn't have a great track record when it comes to illegal invasions, I'd just like to say that I never supported what the UK/US have done in Iraq and, although I'm stuck living here, I have no intention of attending London 2012 either. I always hoped Paris would get 2012.

Emily, Cambridge,

The comments on here from those from China just proves how well the Chinese government has succeeded in pulling the wool over its people eyes. Free the Chinese 'media' now!

Tim O'Toole, London,

Jonathan, we are British citizens and don't have a voice. Examples: EU referendum, Iraq, Immigration.

Scott, Bangkok, Thailand

To Bob, Sheffield

You're absolutely spot on, I agree with you totally.

Don't worry about the tree huggers, they'll be moaning about some other 'right on' cause next week.

Richard, Manchester,

I don't find many occasions to say this with all my heart (apart from after the singing of the Marseillaise in the film Casablanca), but... VIVE LA FRANCE!

John, Edinburgh,

Last time I checked, sandals weren't in fashion in France - amongst lefties or righties.

People who take the time to protest on a Monday afternoon are people who can worry about their country's coffers and have strong convictions about Human Rights and Freedom of Speech at the same time. Trivial things that "don't matter and no-one cares about"? I don't think so. Did you by any chance have a look at what went on in London yesterday?

I'm not sure what kind of person writes such cliché, narrow-minded and insulting comments about things that they don't seem to know much about, but it's always interesting to see that such characters not only exist but are ready to publicize the fact in a national online paper.

Camille, London, United Kingdom

Vive la France et l'Angleterre!
This is the only way to demonstrate that some people do care about Human Rights in these trouble times.
Let's talk about the hyprocrsy of the cops following the flame they are supposed to respect order and human rights above all!

Barkilphedro, Butry,

To people like Bob and Norman, sadly we can't expect everyone to understand the term 'Human Rights', especially since some of us have never been beyond the outskirts of our communities, let alone understanding the bigger picture.

So while I pity you 2 sad lives, I suggest you stop bellowing and allow the real people of the real world, fighting over real issues to get on with their SELFLESS work.

lita, luton, UK

"something that doesn't matter and no-one cares about? "

The oppression and suffering of Tibetans is something that no one cares about? Evidence is above your very post that people do.


I'll keep the sandals thanks, even though they wont be much help climbing your ivory tower.

Will S, Herts,

Bob, Sheffield - the London Olympics are draining Britain's coffers a lot faster than this problem. Pity Paris lost out on 2012

neil, waterford, ireland

bob,

What are you on about?

'Wise men talk because they have something to say. Fools talk because they have to say something' .

Generalising that 'obody cares' just because you don't care about an issue which doesnt impact on your narrow life is a little arrogant perhaps.

James, London,

Lucky enough. No suicide bombers so far. Worried, somebody might get killed.

Mark Liu, Leeds,

Now i can see why the games were awarded to london not paris for 2012

David, Weymouth, Dorset

I wonder what we'll be protesting against next week.

Alan, Edinburgh,

Are we to presume that viv in London is not at work?

Colm, Durham,

While I applaued the demonstrators for supporting an honourable cause. WHAT ABOUT IRAQ. WHAT ABOUT AFGHANISTAN. We are killing on a monstorous scale in the name of democracy. WE DONT EVEN HAVE THAT HERE!! THE HYPOCRISY OF THIS GOVERNMENT IS STAGGERING. OR IS THERE AN OVERIDING IMPERATIVE. LIKE OIL AND THE SUPPLY OF HEROIN ?? Cmon some one make the connection.

Mark, Gateshead, Tyne Wear

Well done to the French! They know how to do a proper protest.

Bob - Shame on you. If you lived in Tibet and didn't have a voice what would you do?

Jonathan, London, UK

Paris 2, London 0.

Eugene, heidelberg, germany

why were the Olimpic Games given to China in the first place?
whoever decided for China was already rubbing their hands in anticipation of all these, don't you think? the chinese bite the bait. stupid chinese.

jose, st helier, jersey

It's quite scary how much force the police, both British and French, are willing to use to control protesters. Given some of the pictures on the TV news stations show police holding and physically restraining people simply for shouting out, not just those who are trying to reach the torch, it's scary how the wishes of the IOC and China are put ahead of a countries own citizens.

Very scary infact.

We need politicians with honour and police who are not thugs.

Arthur, Newcastle,

Tibet, who cares.........

Peter Tatchell protesting, obviously another great cause...

Vinnie, London, UK

This is a rare and wonderful demonstration of Anglo-French unity - attempting to put a spanner in the works of one of the most disgraceful acts of political manoevering. China is a disgrace of a country and if this Olympics is remembered for nothing else, I hope it is for being a total disaster for the host government.

Dean Rodrigues, Oxford, UK

What exactly you people want? You really want to help Chinese? You really care about Chinese? If so, why you are doing this hard to stop the Olympics that 1.3 billion Chinese are eager to see even they are suffering your 'so called' human rights issue. It is a national 'pride' for Chinese, it is not just the Chinese government want it to be successful, it is the whole population that want it to be successful. You just simply don't understand Chinese, how many of you have been to China and talked with them??? To all the human right activists - you really think Chinese people will appreciate your 'effort'??? NO!

Yin, London, London

It's only a sweaty Lycra-fest. What difference can who wins the 200m underwater egg-and-spoon race make to some poor Tibetan? The only people who really need the Olympics are the TV channels and the bent officials.

Frank Upton, Solihull,

The midia only reported the negative news and ignored the positive ones. So the news medias mislead the European. I hope the news midia may report this matter fairly and objectively. Most Chinese are satisfied with our live and socity ,not like what the midia have said.

Stella, xi'an, China

It is fine to fight for one's own rights. But it is NOT fine to hijack the Olympic movement and torch in the name of fighting for one's own rights.
Is this the peaceful demonstration that the Tibetans were lauded for all these years? If the Tibetans are so capable of such ferocious actions just along the Olympic Torch's route, what other violence are they not capable of? Will the governments of the various countries treat the Tibetans as peaceful demonstrators, or as violent protestors - what kind of control or restraint actions will the various governments take? If you walk your talk bout fighting for human rights, then just stand aside and let the protestors snatch the Olympic Torch. If you feel that you have got to protect the Torch, then stop condoning the pro-active self-initiated violent actions by the Tibetans.
There is a time to fight for rights, but not now, not to just exploit the Olympics. I feel positively sick, thinking about the violent acts of the Tibetan movement.

Edwin Heng, Singapore, Singapore

Do you think you know Tibet or Chinese very well?
I suggest you can come to visit China!

And I hope TIMES can report the news in the impersonal way!

yessor, Hangzhou, China

Throwing out the baby with the bath water.

Patrick Henry, Bristol,

Such Hypocracy from the Western Governments, they collectively condemn China's intervention in Tibet whilst at the same time instigating heavy handed Policing of people calling for China to be taken to task.

TEh UK, and France et al should immediately boycot the Olymics - anything less is tacit approval of China's foreign and domestic policies.

Dak man, Berlin, Germany

Bob from Sheffield,

I hope that you are never in a position where you need other people to stand up for your rights.

Andy, Loughborough,

Nothing like a bit of casual xenophobia to start the week, eh Bob? Saves actually thinking about anything I suppose.

Quick question: if no one cares about it, why are people protesting about it?

Daniel, London,

Vive La France
Martin Wood

Martin Wood, Shijiazhuang, China

Perhaps, 'Bob', they have taken a day off work to go and make their voices heard. Perhaps, unlike you, they have convictions and strongly held beliefs, and think that doing something to make their cause better known is a worth while activity.
Perhaps they think that it is up to people to make a stand for others who cannot make their voice heard.
Perhaps, unlike you, they have something important to say, and are not simply whinging on the internet.

MJ, Brighton, UK

Bravo to the French. Snuff out the flame! Snuff out the hypocrisy of the Chinese, who try and use the Olympics to popularise their brutal regime. Silence the hypocrisy of the IOC, who pretend that the Olympics should somehow transcend politics, while at the same time giving their blessing to any degree of governmental financial backing and bandwagonism.

Mike, Surrey,

To Bob, Sheffield.....What gives you the time to protest to the Times on a Monday afternoon? Would it be the same free time as the French protesters or are you doing it from work on your employers dime?

viv, london, england

I am glad that French police is doing what the British police should have done. Freedom of expression and peaceful protests over any issue is one thing but mob intervention to fight to grab the torch is another which has to be condemned.
Yesterday's behaviour by the so called human rights protesters was disgraceful and bring no credit to us. We seem to tolerate the protesters who resort to physical action which is a shame. Most of the physical action I saw yesterday seem to come from Tibetans students and others from Tibet who should be reminded about their obligation they have while they are in the host country. The French will deal with such incidents sternly.
Hope the British police will learn the lessons and be firm the next time some of the same mob would be called upon to do so called peaceful protest on another issue.

Norman, LONDON,

The IOC certainly made a mistake in awarding the games to China, few countries have a worse human rights record. The circus of police & security men surrounding the torch goes against everything the Olympics stand for. I think all countries should boycot the games and I hope the progress of the torch is hampered by demonstrations all the way to Beijing.

Andrew, Staffs, England

Question - What is worse than a bunch of sandal wearing lefty hypocritics protesting about something that doesn't matter and no-one cares about?

Answer - a bunch of french sandal wearing lefty hypocritics protesting about something that doesn't matter and no-one cares about.

Who has time to protest on a monday afternoon? The jobless and the hopeless that's who. This problem is not only draining the UK coffers, but probably the whole of the EU's.

Bob, Sheffield, UK