Proms Podcast

Star musicians and your favourite Times writers at the Albert Hall

Navigation - link to other main sections from here

From Times Online

May 4, 2007

Violinist's dress 'halts US-Iran detente'

Condoleezza Rice listens during speeches at the international conference on Iraq

Sam Knight and agencies

America and Iran continued their uncertain dalliance today, with ambassadorial talks in Egypt undermined by military raids in Baghdad, a cryptic conversation between Condoleezza Rice and her Iranian counterpart and a violinist's red dress.

After the US Secretary of State "exchanged pleasantries" with the Iranian Foreign Minister, Manouchehr Mottaki, on the first day of a conference on the future of Iraq in Sharm-el-Sheikh yesterday, the stage appeared set for a minor thawing of relations between Washington and Tehran and the first top-level negotiations since 1980.

That impression was hardened by a meeting between Ms Rice and the Syrian Foreign Minister, and again today by talks between US and Iranian ambassadors on the sidelines of the conference, which has attracted 50 nations to the Red Sea in an effort to improve the economic, political and security chances of Iraq.

"I don’t know what happened during this meeting but I believe it was positive and indications are positive,” said Hoshyar Zebari, the Iraqi Foreign Minister, who has been among those trying to encourage a rapprochement between the two major external players in his country.

“This is a process I think. It needs more work. There is a lot of suspicion. There is a lot of mistrust. But it is in my country’s interest really to see a reduction of this tension," he added.

But other evidence from the conference, and the Iraqi capital, suggested that the last 24 hours in America and Iran's severely frayed relationship have been anything but straightforward. Iraqi officials present at Ms Rice's brief conversation with Mr Mottaki over lunch yesterday recounted the following strange diplomatic exchange:

“As-salama aleikum (peace be upon you),” Mr Mottaki is believed to have said.

“Hello,” replied Ms Rice. “Your English is better than my Arabic."

At which point the Egyptian Foreign Minister, Ahmed Aboul Gheit, is said to have joined in, encouraging the two countries to talk: “We want to warm the atmosphere some.”

To which Mr Mottaki replied: “In Russia, they eat ice cream in winter because it’s warmer than the weather," a somewhat obscure comment that Ms Rice is said to have agreed with.

The Egyptian Foreign Minister is then reported to have persisted with his match-making intentions, inviting Ms Rice and Mr Mottaki to an informal dinner on the beach in Sharm-el-Sheikh last night, where Mr Mottaki was placed directly opposite the US Secretary of State.

But the Iranian minister did not stay long enough even to sit down, with reports differing as to whether he objected to the seating arrangements or the revealing dress of the violinist who was entertaining the diplomats. “I am not sure which woman he was afraid of: the woman in the red dress or the Secretary of State,” said Sean McCormack, the US State Department spokesman.

Any progress towards easing relations between Iran and America — which are heavily strained by Iran's disputed nuclear programme and US accusations that Tehran is providing weapons and support to extremist Shia militias in Iraq — appeared to be then further undermined by a speech given by Mr Mottaki this morning.

The Iranian Foreign Minister used his address before the conference to say that the US military presence in Iraq was the source of the ongoing instability and violence there. “There should be no doubt that the continuation of and increase in terrorist acts in Iraq originates from the flawed approaches adopted by the foreign troops,” he said. “The United States must accept the responsibilities arising from the occupation of Iraq.”

Mr Mottaki also made strong objections to the American capture of five Iranian officials, described as military agents by the US and diplomats by Iran, in January this year.

The speech surprised the Iraqi delegation, led by Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, which is anxious to see an improvement in relations between Iran and the US. “We didn’t expect it to be in this manner," an aide told the Associated Press. Mr al-Maliki, for his part, asked countries across the region to help secure Iraq's borders and bring about a reconciliation between the country's warring sectarian factions.

Away from the conference, the day-to-day exchange of accusations between the US and Iran continued after a major raid on a Shia neighbourhood in Baghdad, which military officials said discovered a cell of insurgents using Iranian-made weapons to target American soldiers.

A US military statement said 16 suspected militants had been detained and were believed to have helped smuggle militants and so-called Explosively Formed Penetrators (EFP’s), roadside bombs capable of piercing armoured vehicles, across the border. The group was also suspected of carrying out kidnappings and "interactions with rogue elements throughout Iraq and into Iran".

Iranian-made EFP's were first used against British troops in southern Iraq, where the border with Iran is at its most porous, but US officials have seen their use spread across the country, with attacks against American troops reaching a peak of 65 during April, mostly in eastern Baghdad. Four EFP's were among a weapons cache found by Iraqi commandos south of Baghdad last month.

Rice can not make any agreements without the approval of the American Jewish community. As long as Ayatollahs are giving aid to muslims and don't bow to Israel they will have no rights. They are Goyem anyway.

Kevin Cohen, dallas, USA

The history of islam begins in the 7th century ano domini. ali notes that the place now called Iran was peopled before the coming of islam. Well that's fine and good but it aint islam or does ali claim continuity with the Sassanids and the earlier Parthians who's high points included worship of Ahura Mazda and Angra Mainyu; or maybe the Achaemenids (who were the conquest of a Greek after all). Maybe islam didn't result in a break with the past.
When the Mongols cut through the remnants of the Abassid caliphate, they felt only contempt for it, because it was corrupt and decadent. The islamic culture has tried and failed to recover from this all but mortal blow. The ridiculous comments by the likes of ali only serve to show what nonsense passes for islamic education.
If there were 140 m indians in pre European US America, then were surely 50 m in Baghdad before the coming of the Mongols. Imagine the mountains of skulls the Mongols would have made then.
Any more fun facts ali?

Izzy Khoudrus, Burnley,

The Iranian's fear and revulsion of the red dress (more specifically what was under it), provides all the insights we need in dealing with the medieval menace. The truth is that far from being a "civilized" culture, Persia has been in a state of constant pandamonium for 1000 years, lurching from crisis to crisis- now totally unable to cope with the modern world.

Mark, AZ, USA

Both diplomatic representatives of their own country screwed up.
I do not think either of them properly prepared for the meeting.
Public service from public servants is not what it used to be anymore.

Joe, Phoenix, Arizona

Someone noted that the guy speaks Farsi. That may be but the Islamic greeting that he gave was Arabic wasn't it - hence her comment.

Incidentally, whilst the greeting means "peace" it entails no more engratiation than does saying "goodbye". It's just what Muslims (and I gather other monotheists) say when they meet someone - hence Ms. Rice saying "hello" as in English that's what you say when you meet someone.

Why should she say "alekum as-salaam" - which to my mind would indicate she wished to procede in Arabic - and risk a terrible insult by mispronouncing or using the wrong gender ending.

pbhj, Newport,

I hear Chris de burgh singing . . . .

robin, bournemouth, UK

The the red dress has to be seen before an opinion can be formed.

Bill, London, England

Iran has sufficient firepower to sink most of the american fleet, which was obtained from the Russians.
The american government knows this, the american admirals know this, but not the american taxpayer.
What could Rice offer the Iranians? They have oil, and a culture that is thousands of years old, nice rugs too!

Dermot, carmarthen, wales

This article is useless without pictures of the violinist in her red dress.

Karen Kraft, Santa Cruz, CA, USA

This is the display of politics at play. US arrogance and Iranian pride. When you have two 'alpha' males ( Ms. Rice included) in a room to negotiate then that's the initial exchange you will find. If a real attempt at reconciliation was being attempted, the approach would have been completely different. Nobody reconciles in public without having spoken before hand in private. Therefore, token appearences should not be taken as a coming together. It is all part of the approach to come to a common ground. One can only hope that a 'common ground' wil result in everlasting peace to prevent pointless acts of killing.

N, Toronto, Canada

To Mike of Visalia, USA:

140 million or 2 million, the fact of the matter is that the Europeans who migrated to America precipitated a mass slaughter of the indigenous population whether in battle, by disease or through institutionalised neglect.

And also, the nonconformists who fled Britain were seeking religious freedom from the established church, the Church of England, not fleeing Catholic persecution. Please get your facts right if you are going to pick up others for not doing so.

C. Morland, Bath,

The violinist was a convenient excuse, but rather than being a bad thing, it actually helped to disguise more obvious avoidance behaviour.

There could not be a bigger divide in terms of cultural difference. That means that discrete and therefore quiet diplomacy is likely to be the way to go.

Iran could not come out and build a public bridge at this moment in time because their regime has ostracised itself from the West for both cultural and political reasons. Backing down on this front would be the same as admitting that they were wrong.

At the same time, the US is not about to embarrass itself by placing itself in a subservient position through any bridge building of its own. Not only would this be perceived as being "weak" by such a hardline Iranian psyche, it would make the last 28 years count for nothing.

Therefore my sense is that these sworn enemies will work together discretely only when it suits both of them. Don't expect any love-ins just yet.

Craig, Sydney, Australia

There's nothing in the article to support the headline that the violinist's dress was a problem. If indeed the dress was offensive to the minister he has a right to standby his own sense of decorum.

Joe, Boston, USA

It is very clear Iran is not interested in dialogue, and can therefore afford to play funny games like this.

And as for that nonsense about 140m american indians killed in some earlier posts- duh? 1) that number is stir fry crazy 2) it's sad, but name me one culture that hasn't had wars and killed for land (and Ali Soudani and Pu Li, that includes the Persians and the Chinese by the way) Now lets keep to the subject.

Shane, guildford, uk

Violinist's dress 'halts US-Iran detente'
Thre is a meeting then there is Dr Rice then the violist comes in and plays the violin with the blood on the dress. The Iarn delegate remembers Iraq and goes home. So what is the rpoblem. Break the Violin and continue talk. Why does a dress and Viloin stop the real issue , Crazy I say

Firozali A.Mulla MBA PhD, Dar-Es-Salaam, Tanzania

Say is this plitics or a music show???

Firozali A.Mulla MBA PhD, Dar-Es-Salaam, Tanzania

Hello every one...I am so surprised that so many intellectuals gathered here are commenting on whether Mrs. Rice should have spoken this or that...sounds more like tittle tattel one usually finds in Jane Austin's novels. The core of the matter seemed to have vanished into thin air! What about talking on the probabilities? What about Tehran’s new tactic of installing every one, while it is reaching a dangerous, volatile and poised nuclear threat. ? How about looking at facts and figures, with consideration over the real nature of the regime in Iran? A religious fascism, which has no room for change , because of its constitutional structure- which is based on “velayate faghih” which means ONE man’s religious jurisprudence and no influence what so ever, which is facing enormous discontent at home, with at least 460 demonstrations and clashes each month by the resistance movement? Who would pin hopes and trust such an unstable regime? And who be poised to make believe an other dream world for “reformists” and reformers in Iran. ? What reform? By whom? Did any one hope to have peace with Hitler? Well if so, then we would be right to shake this regime’s hands. But , if you think other wise…I think it is getting late. We should be brave enough to risk, and support the resistance movement inside Iran, rather than shake Tehran’s hand , which is engaged in suppression…

setare, london, london

Has no one figured this out? He greeted her in Arabic, which is not his native language. She responded in English that his English is better than her Arabic. Let's try it another way: the German foreign minister greets Ms. Rice at a summit in France and addresses her in French and she (correctly) responds: your English is better than my French. Then it sounds like a self-deprecating and very diplomatic explanation for why she will speak English. But I guess this won't be enough to convince your self-hating American readers or the biased ones from the middle east.

David, London,

Who cares if Condoleeza Rice can't say Asalammalaykum. Her job is to be Secretary of State, and besides, she can't learn every language in the word.

moose, manchester,

If you are negotiating with someone with a view to reaching agreement you find out what will stand in the way of that and avoid it. If you are negotiating with someone with a view to reaching not agreement you find out what will stand in the way of that and do it. Ms Rice has enough resources to know what she is doing.
Perhaps she is war-weary like the 10% of GIs who admit misconduct toward Iraqi people or property, or ignorant, like Thomas from Atlanta, who seems to have forgotten the reaction in the USA to Janet Jackson’s breast.

Neil Howlett, Frome, Somerset

The correct response of a Christian to As-salama aleikum is surely and May the Peace of the Lord be also with you.
Which is a response in similar terms, but reminding the parties who really is Lord.
I would not take the liberty of suggesting what would be the suitable response for a Jew or Hindu (although the psalms are full of Praise the Lord, which none of us would disagree with)
Atheists may prefer the words of Granny Weatherwax in the discworld novels Blessings be upon this house.

EW, UK,

Okay, Mike, so only 2 million Indians were slaughtered.

Credit to you then........any chance of stopping the killing any time soon??

Pu Li, Guangxi, China

Ali, where did you get that figure? That Europeans slaughtered 140 million Indians is an absurd and outrageous insinuation! There were never more than 2 million Indians alive at any given time in North America. There were perhaps 140 million indians living here over the entire course of time. How could anyone with a rational mind believe such nonsense? There was no infrastructure or agriculture to support that many people at one time. If there were that number, how many Europeans were there? They couldn't have killed that many! At that number, If every 10,000 Indians killed a single European, they would have wiped them out. It would have been worse than Custer's last stand. And besides, you need to think about this: White people didn't come here to "beat up" on Indians. They came here to escape the oppression of the Catholoc church in England.

mike, visalia, usa ca

A. MacFarland says that Condoleeza Rice behaved shamefully by not responding to the Iranian ambassador's conventional and stereotypical greeting with an Arabic greeting. Why should she? She's not an Arab. Why should the Iranian use an Arabic greeting? Yes. It's conventional for Muslims and it has as much relevance to peace as saying How are you. The Iranian walking out because of the violinist's dress is just more control freakery by the Iranians. He was the one disrespecting his host by not sitting and listening politely to the entertainment. Time really to stop crawling to these people and stop abusing Ms Rice who is worth a million of your posters!

EW, Cambs, UK

The US is only 225 years old, Iran thousands more. The US jumped from savagery and genocide to IT without passing through the essential time element necessary to achieve the state of civilisation. Just yesterday Queen Elizabeth II commemorated the 400th anniversary of the Jamestown colony. Celebrating what, one wonders?

Folklore tales about the devastation brought by armies of Alexander the Great still being recited in most faraway villages and towns across Iran. In the US, the only tales that can be told is how brave young settlers went West massacring "Red Indians". 140 million of them were killed. No apology so far because there are no "Red Indians" left to deliver such an apology to.

Unlike the demise of past empires, the Sixth Empire (US)will not exit without a collateral damage that could risk the destruction of the globe. With more than 17'000 nuclear warheads and an erratic leadership like Bush, the world is held at ransom. The US should go back into 51 separate states.

Ali Soudani, Geneva, Switzerland

The US and Britain have significant forces fighting in Iraq. And Iran is arming some of the people fighting against them. In this context, these comments above are naive. Both sides are engaged in military acts that kill people. This is the context, not table manners or polite behaviour. Diplomacy is a calculated act designed to accomplish state goals, just as war is. The fact that they are meeting now has nothing to do with niceties. It means that both sides recognize self-interest in talking finally despite being at war through proxies. These people may be nice human beings, but the statecraft is deadly and they know it. In that context, Ms. Rice's remarks are not interesting or relevant, the decision to snub the dinner is seen as an intentional step with unknown meaning or effect, and the State Department's comments as an equally irrelevant dig at the Iranians. Be fair, how would the world react if Ms. Rice had left the dinner because all the other women wore headscarves?

David, London,

Iranians see Rice approach as a weakness. And they may be wright. Looks like they win this round.

bk, brooklyn, usa

I think Dr Rice behaved impeccably!good for her.As for Mr McCormacks comment I liked that also!For an Iranian to greet the Secretary of State with the greeting he did was ridiculous!if he did!what time of day was it anyway?afternoon,morning,or evening so put the good before one of them!the whole encounter was probably different anyway.Thank goodness we were spared any drama of "not shaking hands with a female and a westerner to boot!"

olivebranch, brighton.Sussex, UK.

I'm often amazed at how little we Yanks care to learn about other cultures. I've traveled a lot, but never have I entered a country without the necessary phrases to meet and greet (and ask for directions from) the local people.

As basic Arabic is a diplomatic must in the Middle East, wouldn't one think Ms. Rice might have made some efforts. Apparently diplomacy is not required by this dazzling administration.

Melanie Wood, Rohnert Park, CA, USA

I think it is the US that is more desperate to get the Iranians to talk. However, they can't do that without swallowing their pride. After all, this is one of members of the "Axis of Evil" . It surely is difficult for the leader of the "Allies of Hyprocrisy" to speak to Iran. The US is still smarting from the embassy hostage taking, despicable as it was, and from the fact that there is still a few countries in the world that do not accept its hegemony.

J. Taylor, NY,

Of course Iran's not interested in dialogue. You don't use politics with people like this, any more than you use politics with a mad dog.

You just shoot it and be done with it.

Jack , Austin, usa

No wonder the West can't get anywhere with the much of the persian / muslim / arab world. When an Iranian diplomat behave like emabarrased school boy at the first sight of a low cut dress, or even half an exposed breast for god's sake, then immediately leaves the room, one can only wonder how grown up and mature he really is. What psychosis is he suffering from? Who gives a damn over sensibilities when so much for the Iranians is at stake?! Get over it folks and get down to business. Preventing an attack on Iran and establishing better relations with the West would be worth sitting across from an exposed breast or two, I'd say. It makes Iran's government look completely assinine and prepubescently juvenile.

How about hosting the next lunch at Hooters?

Thomas, Atlanta, GA, USA

A diplomat that leaves a dinner meeting where peace or war can be influenced just because is offended by the pianist dress sounds not very diplomatic or qualified to me. It only shows how intolerant and retrograde our enemies are.
Regarding the verbal exchange both Miss Rise and the Iranian said what is normal to said according to their cultures though not very creative.

The previous comments are just more of the same vocal minority, America -Bush haters Comments/rants everywhere in the slanted media.

labo, Fort Lauderdale, usa

This article truly is, a piece of propaganda. Particularly when it just goes ahead and says "Iranian made EFPs" are used against the occupation forces. However, the state of the occupation propagand media is so rotten that even in this propaganda piece the hatred of the people that do not look like the writer and employer of the writer of this article shines through. Very revealing. Alas, the freedom of press, still has a place in the western world.

Ali, Iran, Iran

“Hello,” replied Ms Rice. “Your English is better than my Arabic."
I don't know if this is true. But, if it is, there might be the problem. Iranians don't speak Arabic. I would think Ms. Rice would know this.
Maybe it was misreported? An Iranian diplomat would be insulted to be thought of as Arabic. Elitist perhaps, but this is something Rice should know. duh

mz, new york, ny

If I understand it correctly it is against Islamic protocol for a believer to greet a non-believer with the phase "peace be upon you". This is because there can be no peace between the believers and the infidels.

Anyway, Iran does welcome dialogue as a means to delay and decieve the west and the US or to further their own agenda for the region. By no means are they interested in a democratically stable Iraq.

We should stop seeing our enemies as anything other than what they are. The only solution in their eyes is our destruction.

J. Russell, Houston, TX

I'm amazed at the Bushie's continuing inability to comprehend the values of another culture.
It's typical and sad, but I guess to be expected. This is the same gang that invaded Iraq without a plan.
Should we expect subtlety or perhaps just an ounce of energy expended in learning an Arabic greeting.
By the way, I'm from Canada not the Middle East. I'm just constantly baffled by America's ineptitude in foreign afffairs.

Michael, Penticton, Canada

Of course Iran would walk away from any attempt at dialogue--even a dinner. They need to keep the USA as the 'Great Satan' enemy -- their theocracy runs on fear. The Iranian government has no interest in improved relations with the U.S.--instead they want to build nuclear weapons and use the Shiite militias that they fund and train to take over Iraq and Lebanon and turn them into little Iranian pawns. This should be very obvious from everything they say or do.

Ahmadinejad, Tehran,

Ken,

It's all about "cultural sensitivity". Subtle, provocactive gestures designed to turn the Iranians away and then blame them for walking away. "Hey, what did I do?"

Paddy, Rochester,

Rice is not exactly Kissinger-endowed, but I don't think she is any more android than her counterpart. He may be half-accurate in his comment about strife. Only half. Both sides have not remembered they belong to the Generation of Humanity and the common enemy is Alien. Their task is to "bring us together" - come back Richard Nixon , a human gangster who could talk to other gangsters.

Tony Gold, Chiang Mai, UK

“Your English is better than my Arabic," said our highest ranking diplomat to a native Farsi speaker. Maybe Bush should have appointed her to a non-diplomatic post, like the Supreme Court, where the only exotic words are in latin.

Please; someone Save us from our leaders.

Matthew Feldman, Lewiston, NY

I think this was mis-reported. Mottaki wasn't insulted by the woman wearing a revealing dress; he was revolted by the actual dress. Apparently, Mottaki is a big fan of couture, and the dress was not to his liking. After the meeting, he was quoted as saying, "...and that violinist's dress??! You've got to be kidding. That style was sooo 1996. If the US can't be serious about fashion, then they can't be serious about foreign affairs." He then curtseyed and danced out the door.

Patrick, St.Louis,

The State Department spokesman, McCormack, ought to be muzzled for saying that Mr. Mottaki was afraid of the women present. Don't they train these people to refrain from insensitive comments? Isn't it possible that Mr. Mottaki's sensibilities are different than Mr. McCormacks. As someone trying to foster communication wouldn't it have been smarter to find out what the objection was, causing the quick departure rather than speculating that it was fear of the women? Does the State Department want more ill-feelings by putting out insulting comments?

Shari Lightstone, Phoenix, Az

How shameful of Rice that when the Iranian Foreign Minister offers words of peace to her (As-salamu aleikum, Peace to you) she is unable to properly respond to such a simple greeting and only says "hello" and that his English is better than her Arabic. Duh. This is the head of the Department of State??
She's probably too culturally dense to understand how incorrect and condescending she was.
Nice going, Bush, you picked another winner. With people like this nominally incharge of diplomacy, it's not surprising that US influence around the world has dwindled.

Andrew MacFarland, Muscat, Oman

"Iranian-made EFP's were first used against British troops in southern Iraq, where the border with Iran is at its most porous, but US officials have seen their use spread across the country"
On what evidence is this statement based? Proof has not been provided pon this issue, neither by the US or by the UK. Claims have been repeatedly made by US officials but no evidence has been produced. The report above should state this, otherwise it is just baseless propaganda.

paddy, newcastle,

Iran claims they welcome dialogue with the US. However, when an opportunity arose (where Condi Rice didn't seem to mind being seated across from her Iranian counterpart), Mottaki used the violinist's dress as an excuse to leave. It seems Iran is not very interested in dialogue after all.

Ken, Boston, USA, Massachusetts

This is the most misleading title on an article I've ever seen. The "dress" is barely mentioned-- why even bring it up? One assumes it was more revealing than Muslims would be comfortable with-- so who is in charge of protocol? Cultural insensitivity by the musician may be significant, but titillating titles and no substance or analysis trivializes international tensions.

MArgo Kipps, Santa Cruz, CA

Why is it that with all the power the US, Britain, Russia, China and the EU have that they always bow to the weaker nations. When Iran took the Britons hostage the UK could have stated its capabilities to punish Iran and made Iran bend to its will. Iran must be made to understand that if it pursues Nuclear capabilities that it will be destroyed by much more powerful nations and it will have only itself to blame.

Chuck, Saco, USA

Iranian EFPs ?, Where else can Iraq get them? Just take a look at any footage of rebels or troops, from fighting countries around the world. What do you see? American made weapons in the hands of both sides.

steve, Duluth, Minnesota, USA

'Iranian-made EFP's ' slightly objectionable.. Never has been independently confirmed by any international body. Unless a reference is made to the 'Iranian' made EFPs which are labelled in english and not Farsi. As good as references made towards WMDs.. I guess columnists could be abit more careful with the words and to avoid make any 'judgemental' statements.

Gary, London, Middlessex

Iranian-made EFP' Did they say "Made in Iran? " on them? Couldn't have been made from the ammo dumps found in Iraq that Bush ordered the troops to leave alone...

Prissy, Columbus, Ohio