i say well done to the British Soldiers on the ground who face these situations every day.

well done lads, stay safe.

Daz Brady, Dublin, Ireland

out out out as soon as you can war is hell x infinity

hank hill, buffalo, usa/ ny

This war simply CAN NOT be won. Why? Because the 'insurgents' are either part of the local population or come from nearby countries. They will always be there and can afford to play the waiting game.
We thought we could build up a sufficiently strong Iraqi government, police force and army to defeat these people. We were wrong. We have no stomach for a robust, long-term occupation, so will withdraw. The insurgents know this and are going to give us plenty of kicks up the a**e to help us on our way.
The tragedy is that anyone with more than two brain cells knew this would happen from the begining.
The question remains: Was Tony Blair really that ignorant - or was he criminally insane?

Tony Jones, Grantham, Lincs

Reminds me of Stalingrad, when Hitler would not give his army permission to retreat in the face of an impossible situation.

Brian Gilbert, Hampton, Middx

A very good friend of ours died in Basra, in the helicopter that was brought down. How many more young men must die? Darren believed in what he was doing, but it is heartbreaking to see his family without him

Sheena Reed, Taunton, England

Hearing about more deaths from the immoral war our retarded leaders got us into was getting tedious 2 years ago. Now most people are just numb to the deaths we hear about.
We shouldn't have followed our war hungry Yank blood brothers to Iraq in the first place. We shouldn't be there now. But since our governments make money out of war, and our soldiers are worth nothing, we'll be there for years to come. Enjoy the show!

Andrew, Godalming, England

It is unfortunate that British troops are victimized to the lack of fortitude within the British government to decisively deal with the mullahs in Iran. Instead adopting a firm policy towards the Iranian regime, the government has decided to be the regime's first line of defense in the international arena. The blacklisting of the People's Mojahedin of Iran and the National Council of Resistance of Iran is a prime example of the treacherous policy of appeasement the government has chosen to pursue for so many years.

Democracy and stability in Iraq will not succeed until there is democractic change (by the people) in Iran. First step in accomplishing this is to recognize the Iranian Resistance led by Mrs. Maryam Rajavi. Second is to close all border crossings between Iran and Iraq. Third secular democractic forces in Iraq must be supported and the Maliki regime must go.

Shahab, Washington, DC

i have just returned from iraq as a civilian, iran has more to do with this than is being reported the media in the uk are reporting maybe 10% of what actually goes on
when is Iran going to be held to account for what it is doing, this is a proxy war of the worst kind we are the meat in the sanwich while iran laughs in our faces

mike, Banbury, Oxfordshire

Barry - so we occupy a sovereign nation, free them from tyrrany and then kill them with our bombs when we can't control the insurgency that we should have realised was going to emerge. Maybe, just maybe withdrawing is the right option.

Fredi, Battersea, UK

Over the coming decades and centuries what will become of this part of the world? Will it be enlightened, prosperous and peaceful? Or will it be barbaric, savage and overwhelmed by superstition and murderous chaos?

Which future is the Mahdi Army trying to create?

The Old Vermonter, Randolph, Vermont USA

In re Mr. Oliver's comment that Iranian aid to Iraqi militias is "surely supposition": it is much more than supposition, and our governments (US and British) know it. When I was in southern Iraq in 2003 and 2004, there were so many Iranians running around with weapons that it would have been laughable, if not so deadly.

What angers me is not that we went to war, but that our governments (US and British) have allowed so many soldiers to die at the hands of Iranian-sponsored insurgents, while the politicians wring their hands and hope for the best.

I'm becoming more and more anti-war. Not because of war itself, but because so many brave men and women in the military, and their families, must put themselves at the mercy of spineless and/or incompetent politicians and bureaucrats.

God bless Private Barber and his family.

Michael, North Little Rock, USA

Andrew - If the British lost 2 soldiers a day for a week, there would be a huge political crisis and the pressure on Brown to pull out entirely woudl become irresistible. 2 soldiers a day for a month and we woudl be out of Iraq, full stop. I hope it doesn't happen and our troops can be withdrawn in good order with the absolute minimum number of casualties but I fear that that will not be the case.

And Barry Holmes - "a few civilians going down" (well, tens and hundreds of thousands) is what caused this nightmare.

David Milton, London,

So much for the nonsense peddled by the British media that the British occupier's approach somehow creates a more friendly approach from the local populace. In spite of all the usual balanced media approach to the Iraq war, the lie that British soldiers are not be targeted is apparent.

Eric, Dubin,

We shouldn't be in Iraq. If we are "fighting a war" then surely our soldires are going to get killed too. This is reality not a computer game.

Trevor, Margate, UK

A tragic loss. Thank you Mr Lloyd and the Times for this grim report. Only articles like these ram home what's really happening out there...

CWW , Ipswich,

my boyfriends in the royal welsh at basra palace im scared for him but i know he is strong and he has been trained well and will do what ever he can for his country!!..

cally, cardiff, wales

You ADVERTISING "Juba, Baghdad Sniper" isn't helping much either Mate!

Gawd!

Ian Gibb, Ashtead, Surrey UK

Well done Mr Barry Holmes, I don't think the British Army want to commit mass murder. The so called Mahdi Army are civilians that have had training, they dress as civilians in a city of millions of civilians. Who do you bomb? Of course if the soldiers see them with weapons, then they engage them with the safest weapon system that is unlikely to injure innocent people but destroy the threat. Sometimes this includes air delivered munitions.

To Mr Jim Oliver - 2006 dated, 60mm mortar bombs did not come from the USA weapons that are unaccounted for. They had to come from a country that either manufactures or buys arms. I'll give you one guess - Iran. As for a USA lost AK47 killing Pte Barber with a single shot through a 4" gap, at night, I think not. Have you not thought about the millions of weapons that the Iraqi Army once had? Where have they all gone?

Dai Williams, Tenby,

Yet another tragic death of one of our brave soldiers.And for what? Whilst we are fighting on another front to try and reduce the baneful threat of terrorism in Afghanistan a large part of our military capability is in Southern supporting an illegitimate attack on a country that was ruled by a vile dictator but was not the source of either Islamic fundamentalism nor the supply of life- ruining opiates

The sooner we free ourselves of this unnecessary war the sooner our troops can concentrate on helping to improve the lives of others in greater need of their undoubted skills.We rightly ask a lot of our young service men and women, and so they should not be sent to die unless it is in a cause that is beyond any doubt.Our politicians badly let us down on the issue of Iraq but it is the likes of Private Barber who must pay with his life leaving yet another family to mourn their loss.

B JACKSON, NOTTINGHAM, UK

Stop buying middle-east oil. Buy from Russia e.g.

Brian Seals, Scarborough, Nth Yorks,

If the vehicles had airconditioning they wouldnt need to leave hatches open. Has anyone here ever driven a hunk of metal that gets up to 50degrees, turning into a sauna? I doubt it. It just illustrates the lack of preparation for the environmental conditions.

Ed, Islington,

It is accepted that the US generals did not want advice from the UK generals as to how the peace should be won.

I do not think that it is the responsibility of UK troops to hold the Basra door open while the US army vacate the country.

Our troops have done a great job, but they can not be expected to hold these local warring factions apart, we should either stand aside and let them at each other, or impose martial law and take the fight to them, without the media in tow.

Iranian involvement is totally the fault of the USA, of course Iran would jump into the vacuum left by disbanding the police, army and justice systems, those guys have families to feed, they are trained, and they are easy recruits. Throw in an election and you get a Shia Govt

Elections in Iraq are pointless, the Iraqi PM can't command his troops without getting the OK from the US, and the intelligence service in Iraq is paid for by the CIA; is that democracy?? The US has handed Iraq to the Iran Govt

Steve , Baghdad,

Very sad. It just reminds us all that although this is fast becoming a forgotten war, our troops are still fighting hard and bravely, and are still putting their lives on the line.

They deserve far more support than we're giving them, and the British Govt should be ashamed. Its 2007 and we still can't provide adequate equipment or air cover for our troops.

Sam, Sheffield, UK

It seems to me that Iran is waging wars through its proxies in Iraq and Lebanon. Iran's is a dangerous regime. It's unfortunate that the west has shot its bolt on Iraq and has nothing left to confront Iran with.

Gerard, London, UK

The Times wrote: "Militiamen, bolstered by weapons, training and equipment from Iran, have consolidated their control over various areas of the city."

Where is your concrete evidence regarding Iranian weaponry?

Shim, Zurich, Switzerland

I don't believe that it was a lucky shot because many more must have missed before one found the target so there was ample warning of the possibility. Why not have hovering cars with no indication of where the driver is or do it all remotely?

Tom, Perth, Australia

It is sad to lose 4 this week, but thank God that our casualties are low - about 120 in over 4 years or less than 3 a month. Compare that with any other war and Tony Blair took George Bush into a justified war. Compare how many Iraquis we have killed with the numbers that have been killed by Muslim extremisis/fundamentalists themselves.
Just don't blame Tony Blair for that; where he failed was in not saving the people of Zimbabwe from Mugabe - another tyrant.

Jim T, Solihull, West Mids

I can't believe that the JAM is up to the same caliber of the British Army despite claims of training and supply from the Iranians. Who I may point out couldn't defeat Iraq in the first place years ago during that war. I mean c'mon we're not talking about the likes of Russian advisors here. I'd be looking at the rules of engagement British soldiers are forced to follow, their leadership, and yes a wishy washy government policy towards their mission there. Honestly, from reading this article and others it sounds like they're being run out by a small militia thats BEEN ALLOWED to get the tactical upperhand, and now there seems to be no motivation what so ever to get it back! Who can blame the British soldiers for a drop in moral when they all know they are so much better than that. Apparently the lessons learned from Vietnam were lost in British War Colleges.

Murph, Madisonville, USA/KY

This is truly turning into a Vietnam:-

- The enemy consistently lose on the battlefield

- A third party re-supplies the enemy and can't be attacked (Iran here, China in Vietnam and Pakistan for the Russians in Afghanistan)

- One of our dead is viewed a greater loss than 20-30 of theirs.

- No-one back home wanted to get involved (Except Blair of course).

Wars are won by destroying the economic infrastructure of the enemy. By allowing Iran to act as this infrastructure with impunity we cannot possibly win.

Given that all we want is the oil, we should fall back to those installations, mostly in desert and easily defended (no worries about shooting civilians in the desert), and sod the cities.

Or of course, make a point and destroy Irans limited petrol refining facilities. An easy to hit hard to defend target that would shaft their economy.

JonB, glasgow, UK

As a long retired soldier of 16 years service I understand that British to follow their orders bravely however I feel sad that young men in their prime are being ordered to sacrifice their lives to satisfy the political whim and brutality of Tony Bliar and George Bush.
Deepest sympathy to the their bereaved particularly those of Craig Barber today.

Hubert Taylor, Birmingham, England

Barry Holmes,

Since when was trying to avoid civilian casulties political correctness? Making a genuine effort to avoid civilian casulties is what seperates professional soldiers from these thugs that they're fighting. Stop doing that and you're no better than them.

Jason O'Mahony, Dublin,

Basically, we have lost.

All the good intentions about reconstruction and so on have come to nothing.

One-by-one our soldiers are going down dead or horrifically wounded.

Is it really sensible to retreat to the airport where they will be eventually surrounded - what if the runways are destroyed by mortar fire - what then? An ignominious retreat as from Saigon?

What is the point of staying on? We should show common sense and decency towards these poor men - and bring them home now - no one else should die to save the face of a distant, callous politician in Westminster.

Andrew Stephenson, Newhaven, UK

To Barry Holmes. "Everyone is considering oneself a strategist, watching a battle from afar".
By the way, Soviet troops had a significant losses while withdrawing out of Afghanistan. Except military aspects psychological matter are present here, imho. Soldiers begin to think, they uselessly shed own blood, but enemies are feeling themselves by winners and starts to fight like devils. In any case, thanks to mistakes of politicians simple people pay by own lives.

Alex, Pskov, Russia

"the Army must have known roughly where the Mahdi army was
located and called in aircraft and pattern bomb the area so a few civilians go down so what"

In counterinsurgency warfare the civilians are not the background to the war, they *are* the war, they are the prize. Indiscriminate bombing of the civilians will, experience has long shown, increase support for the insurgents and further erode any possibility of government control.

I know it gives one a good feeling to talk tough, but it is counterproductive.

Phil, Essex, UK

Phony war, get out while you can, weapons of mass destruction, yellow cake, centrifuge tubes, portable gas trucks, Hussein working with Al Qaeda, all lies, for profit.

One Trillion wasted, 3600+ dead, 27,000+ wounded, 2 million Iraq citizens refugees in Syria, Jordan and Iran, 2 millon more who fled their homes. No water, no electricity, no food.

9 Billion in missing US cash, 190,000 missing AKs and pistols, a statement made this week from a US officer to a Sunni ally, "If you follow the rules we won't kill you."

Get out as fast as you can, Iran is next, you may be invited to the party.

Dalton, Dallas, US/Texas

having just returned from iraq as an infantry soldier in 2 rifles i can say this....if u don't support the war - support the troops...end of discussion. these lads are fighting for their lives every day and the only time the civilian population hears about it in the press is when a soldier loses his life.

forget about the reasons - these are history. Focus on the present, we are at war! The people on the front line are good at what they do. the Iraqi people support us, i have seen it first hand.

Support your troops

maror, loughton, essex

I love sitting here and reading the comments that people come up with. 'Bomb this..shoot that' If you're such a tactical expert why don't you enlist and show our boys how to really do their job?

I'm sure there's a army recruitment centre nearby.

Iraq is a mess, I've been there, I've seen what goes on.

until you go there and see for yourself i suggest you pipe down and get back to pushing that pencil.

Sean, London,

The warrior's way is not an easy one, especially when you are hamstrung by political and military leaders who are cowards.
It was a morally bad decision to go there in the first place. Compounded after such a short time commitment by telling the world you want to get out ASAP.
There is no proper way out of this situation because almost every honourable and impeccable way out is closed due to previous decisions which where based on ego, revenge and arrogance.

Bob, Leeds, West Yorks

I have to agree with Barry Holmes on this. If the army was allowed to do what it's been trained to do then we'd have had Iraq under control years ago.
Unfortunately the army is under the politicians thumb and therefore under the thumb of their image cronies who want to portray a fluffy, considerate, tolerant and embracing view of our aour forces in Iraq.
Hell, at one point the politicians told the army to take their helmets off!!

Pull out now! Between the Insurgents and the British Governments half-witted politicians the British Army havent got a chance.

Phill Barlow, Heswall, UK

The problem is essentially an Arab problem - the conflict between Shias and Sunis which could spread to the whole of the Middle East. It is not a problem Britain can solve. True, it was precipitated by the Iraq war, but other problems, of a different kind perhaps, would have arisen if Saddam had stayed in power. The question now is - Can the major Arab states around Iraq get their act together sufficienty to exert the necessary influence to calm Iraq? If they cannot do that, no one else can do it for them.

Marni, London,

How much longer can the United Nations allow IRAN to stir up trouble in the Middle East and supply arms to terrorists.
If the Europeans and the UN do nothing the USA and Israel will attack Iran in the near future.

bill rees, Truro, Cornwall

The Britsh army in Iraq have been placed in a really terrible situation as this report shows only too clearly. However, to say that the militamen have been "bolstered by weapons, training and equipment from Iran" is surely supposition, rather than factual. The Times article of 6th of August "US loses track of 190,000 weapons in Iraq" rather suggests that Private Barber was more likely to have been killed by a US army issue AK-47 than anything supplied by Iran.

Jim Oliver, Leicester, United Kingdom

Recent activities and killings in Basra have demonstrated that after running down the military force there, our government has put more and more of our courageous service in harms way.

Our service men no longer have the strength in numbers sufficient to protect themselves let alone be able to stem any inter faction fighting.

Gordon Brown, its time you put up or shut up. You are spending too much time on ego bolstering politics and very little time on realities. If the UK doesn’t have the forces and equipment to do the job, then hand over to someone else with the capabilities.

Logic suggests it’s the UK government that is having its brave and courageous citizens in Basra killed by proxy.

Ian B, Reading, UK

Trident has certainly proved its worth.

eddie reader, birmingham, uk

I can only say this is heartbreaking. It proves the maxim "no good deed goes unpunished".

Erick Blair, Los Angeles, USA

Looks as if sniper teams are targeting British forces as well as US. Several aspects:
- Killing one or even two soldiers a day will hardly drive the British out of Basra
- However, to film the event and post it on the web has a very negative impact on military families. (see Juba, Baghdad sniper)
- The more the war goes badly the greater pressure to cut and run. The British pulling out would put the US under even more pressure
- Someone has to hold Basra, the only land exit for an army to escape from Iraq. Assume memories of Dunkerque influenced the selection of Basra.
The US is looking for an excuse to withdraw from with something vaguely resembling honour. "Our allies let us down" seems ready-made.
The US getting kicked out of Iraq with encourage other oil-producing countries in the region to begin selling their oil in something other than dollars, assume euros.
If that happens, the US dollar and economy are under threat.
So you don't run out of things to worry about.

Andrew Milner, Yokohama, Kanagawa

It's time to get rid of the PC brigade, the Army must have known roughly where the Mahdi army was
located and called in aircraft and pattern bomb the area so a few civilians go down so what. They offer
little help to the army they have to forget about being
Mr nice guy and start taking control of the place again.

Barry Holmes, Christchurch, New Zealand

How do you spell 'terrorist' in a UK paper (London Times)....militiamen...The Times hasn't learned by now that it isn't PC with those murderers.....

tim mccarthy, san marcos, U S of A /Ca

With the Media battling against the War Machine and Profiteering Bankers, "So you don't run out of things to worry about." will hardly worry them, Andrew, but there are only Losers in War so now you have identified the Fools who are prepared to risk everything to maintain their Grip on Reality..... their Pathetic Vision.

Come on Rupert, I'm trusting in Global Operating Devices that the Times are HyperManic and with AI NEUKlearer HyperRadioProActive Quantum Communications InterNetworking will HyperVision. [Hypervisors and their ilk are Virtualisation's Monitors and Mentors...... Virtually the NeXXXXt Stage/Phase of Controller........ UltiMate Grand Master/Vizard/Wizard/Systems Programmer/CyberIntelAIgent IDEntity...... an Artificial Intelligently Designed Entity by Virtue of the Fact that ITs Patrol and Control is the Space IT Controls with the Sharing of NeuReal Intelligence...... and ITs Right Royal Standard? Open Source Colours, of course.

Your Country [which one] needs You.

amanfromMars, Seventh Heaven , Global Communications HQ

We are looking at another Dien Bien Phu. In some ways this may be a blessing, hopefully it should mean the end of our overseas 'adventures'. It's just a pity that so many Service people have to die before we get it through our thick heads.

michael john murphy, brightlingsea, england

So we are being run out of Basra by the Iraqi Home Guard.
Good planning by the Cabinet of March 2003 and Gen Mike Jackson!!!

sam_m, london,