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From Times Online

August 22, 2007

We must not withdraw as we did from Vietnam, says Bush

A Vietnamese man is punched by an American while trying to board the last helicopter out of Saigon

Philippe Naughton and Sam Knight

President Bush warned Americans today that a US withdrawal from Iraq could produce a catastrophe similar to the one that cost hundreds of thousands of lives in south east Asia after US forces left Vietnam in 1975.

In a speech in Kansas City to an audience of veterans, many of whom fought in Vietnam, Mr Bush said that an early exit from Iraq would "pull the rug out" from under American troops just as their efforts are paying off.

But in drawing a parallel between Iraq and Vietnam — a parallel which his Admistration has always avoided — Mr Bush angered many political opponents, who immediately questioned the accuracy of the comparison.

The speech marked the start of an attempt by Mr Bush to regain the initiative on Iraq before the top military and civilian officials report to Congress next month on the progress of the war and Iraq's political progress.

It was undermined, however, by news only a few hours before that 14 US soldiers had been killed in a helicopter crash in northern Iraq, the deadliest such incident for two years. The US military said that the Blackhawk helicopter had been downed by a technical malfunction.

Mr Bush told the national convention of the Veterans of Foreign Wars that his speech was intended to provide "some historical perspective" on the campaign against Islamic extremism around the world.

He celebrated the success of postwar reconstruction in Japan after the Second World War and the emergence of South Korea after its war with the North. Then he moved on to the more contentious example of Vietnam, arguing that the US withdrawal after nine years of conflict produced a bloody vacuum in Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos.

"There is a legitimate debate about how we got into the Vietnam War and how we left," he said.

"Whatever your position in that debate, one unmistakable legacy of Vietnam is that the price of America's withdrawal was paid by millions of innocent citizens whose agonies would add to our vocabulary new terms like 'boat people', 're-education camps,' and 'killing fields."

Mr Bush said another legacy of Vietnam was America's perceived unwillingness to be fight overseas again. "There was another price to our withdrawal from Vietnam, and we can hear it in the words of the enemy we face in today’s struggle," Mr Bush said.

The President quoted speeches by Osama bin Laden and his number two Ayman al-Zawahiri, who urged al-Qaeda supporters to remember "how they ran and left their agents" in Vietnam.

"We must listen to the words of the enemy," he said, arguing that the war on terror represented an ideological battle similar to that waged against imperial Japan and Nazi Germany.

Mr Bush's assertion that there remained a "legitimate debate" about America's involvement in Vietnam was the first thing to be questioned. One poster on the liberal Daily Kos weblog replied: "Sure — just like there's a 'legitimate debate' about the theory of evolution."

The President's reference to the "killing fields" of Cambodia was equally controversial. It was quickly pointed out that the Khmer Rouge seized power only after a failed American bombing campaign brought down the previous Cambodian government.

Harry Reid, the Democratic Senate Majority Leader, quickly dismissed Mr Bush’s sense of history.

"President Bush’s attempt to compare the war in Iraq to past military conflicts in East Asia ignores the fundamental difference between the two," he said. "Our nation was misled by the Bush administration in an effort to gain support for the invasion of Iraq under false pretences, leading to one of the worst foreign policy blunders in our history."

As Mr Bush insisted that America "must get the job done" in Iraq, a senior US General criticised what he described as the disengagement of British forces around Basra as the UK reduces its troop levels in Iraq.commitment.

General Jack Keane said that Basra was sliding into a state of "gangland wafare" just as the security situation was improving in central and northern Iraq. He said US commanders were unhappily facing the prospect of sending reinforcements to the south as the UK continues to reduce its force.

"I think there is a general disengagement from what the key issues are around Basra. I would imagine that is where the source of frustration is," he told the BBC. "The Brits have never had enough troops to truly protect the population and we (the Americans) have found that out painfully in the central region as well."

Bush Snr, saw combat in WW2 and had the good sense and some politically aware colleagues to advise him during the first Gulf War that the invasion of Iraq was a "really stupid" thing to do. However, Bush Jnr or "Draft Dodger George" who managed to avoid going to Vietnam by serving in the National Guard ( the normal get out clause for the children of the rich and affluent in America !) has the gall to try to justify the current situation in Iraq with references to the fate of the South Vietnamese once America had withdrawn from Vietnam.
The situation in Iraq is solely due to the actions of the United
States Government . The fact that the International Community in general and the UN in particular did not intervene should cause them to hang their heads in shame.

Victor Gregory, Basildon, Essex, England

The delusions of President Bush have truly reached a new pinnacle. To frame the decision to end the Vietnamese War as a losing proposition, when we have the benefit of history and a visibly capitalistic Vietnam is to defy all possible logic. More troubling, it communicates Bush's complete lack of command for strategic thinking and an unappreciation for the importance of assessing the net present value of all viable alternatives.

We'll do our best to elect an good man in 2008: the venerable and deeply insightful Ron Paul.

Alex, Ann Arbor, Michigan, US

The liberal left is always upset when the truth is spoken about them and in this case the truth is confirmed by history.
When the US pulled out of Vietnam it's historical fact that hundreds of thousands of people died as a result.
The Democratic Party along with the Liberal US and World media is dripping with the blood of the Vietnamese people on it's hands.
And what about the 55,000 American soldiers who died in that war?
What did they die for?
For nothing, it's the same outcome they wish for Iraq.
So Bush is quite right to point it out.
I just wonder why he waited so long.

Rocky Boisvert, Prov., RI

It is interesting to hear Bush say that the US is the only solution to a problem which the US caused in its entirety.

One cannot help wondering what Bush's handlers are trying to say. Are they saying the mess is their responsibility and the US must sort it out?

Or is Bush admitting defeat in a war that never needed to happen (we tried against all the odds, etc., etc.)?

I can only wonder why the UK is allied to this absurd country. More to the point: does David Cameron have a policy on this?

dw, London, UK

Bush is braver than I imagined if he plans to defend Vietnam in front of veterans who were actually there.
I suppose he disapproved of America's involvement at the time because apparently he arranged his service in Texas, not in S.E. Asia. At the same time he seems to be saying that American withdrawal from Vietnam was a mistake in that it led to boat people, killing fields etc.
I find the logic confusing, it seems to be I didn't go, but others should have stayed.

Nick, St Ouen, France

So...Vietnam was going so well, the US should have stayed and 'won'? And just how many Americans VOTED for this guy?

julian, london, uk

To coin a phrase. "They just don't get it"...If we retreat-failure will come to the Iraqi people. Time and success go together while the Iraqi people build up and get stronger. Many areas in Iraqi are improving and the Iraqi people are stepping up. The Iraqi government still needs to work better and faster together to solve their issues and differences, and stop the religious discord. They can live in peace if they really want and desire it. What the Iraqi people fail to see, is the fact they would have never been given this opportunity of freedom under the old regime. Rusty, VA

Herb, Suffolk, VA

I enjoyed reading Bush's speech, it was comical to be honest, a man who avoided the Vietnam war thanks to Bush senior's connections is telling others that they need to stay the course, unlike Vietnam. Who says Americans don't understand irony.

As for the Japanese, what they achieved was entirely down to themselves, the same for the Germans, both nations have a strong work ethic with good leadership, also let's bare in mind that Japan was already an advaned nation well before the war. It's laughable to imagine that the US would deliberately create one of it's most toughest economic competitors who at one stage in the 80's was almost in the process of conquering the US economically.

What Bush is really saying is, "..we need the oil, Israel wants the middle east re-shaping, and it's going to happen whether you like it or not, so get used to it".

Bob, London, England

It was Vietnam - fresh from driving out the US - who ended the Khmer Rouge genocide by invading Cambodia. The West responded by imposing sanctions on Vietnam and backing and training the ongoing KR campaign against the Vietnamese.

Any upsurge in terrorism that followed the US defeat in Vietnam came out because America was now sponsoring terrorist groups like the KR to attack enemies it was incapable of defeating directly or militarily.

Kate, Hampshire, UK

The world seems to be over full with armchair experts. A pity that half of them are draft dodgers, and the other half are appeasers. A whole lot of decent men and women have died to give us our freedom, which we all seem to take for granted today. Freedom comes witha price tag like everything else. Patriotism is an outdated word today, more is the pity.

If we don't face up to the threats today, God help all our tomorrows.

Frank, London, UK

The only similarity between Iraq and Viet Nam is that the US will also lose the war in Iraq

Fried, Dallas, TX

Yes, tens of thousands lost their lives in the "re-education camps" in Vietnam. But contrast that against the estimated 5.1 MILLION who died DURING the Vietnamese War.

The senselessness of our involvement in Vietnam is shocking; check the history from 1945-1960. Ho Chi Minh sought to become a US ally when Japan was defeated, but instead we installed the Chinese and (soon) the French as colonial occupiers. Not exactly pro-democracy, eh? In contrast, we were simply clueless about how we destabilized Cambodia & made room for the killing fields.

Likewise Bush lied thru his teeth using "democracy" and "anti-terrorism" as talking points for Iraq, when in fact he wanted to establish a US presence in the region, and figured a good PR campaign would whitewash our intentions.

Unfortunately, he had no clue how strongly people want to control their own destiny, even if their goals don't include robust stock markets and Coca-Cola to all who can afford it. Again, we blunder into disaster.

Walt French, Oakland, CA / USA

It is difficult to identify any issue which the administration has been right. This is another in which it is wrong. They told us that Iraq was obtaining nuclear yellow cake, and were wrong. They said that Iraq was filled with weapons of mass destruction, and were wrong. They said that undertaking an aggressor war would result in dancing in the arab streets and cause democracy to blossom, and were wrong.
They have wire tap our citizens, denied habeas corpus. Have established political prisons, forced millions of Iraqis to flee like boat people.

Roger , Salisbury, CT

Gereral Keane issues careful and guarded statements with regard to the British Army needing to grow in size. Consecutive governments, Labour and Conservative have hacked away at the British Forces for years. We have now come to a state where they need to be rebuilt and heavily invested in...even if it means increasing taxes. You get what you pay for...and we aren't paying.

kirk, Rotherham, UK

Once again we see a politician interpreting history to suit himself. Bush is a dishonest man who, on a personal level, managed to dodge the Vietnam War, leaving the bombing, killing and carnage to others who were not so privileged. The inevitable American/UK withdrawal from Iraq - whether it comes sooner, or later - will certainly leave death and recriminations in its wake. All wars leave behind such legacies, but that is no excuse for occupying a country against the wishes of the great majority of its people. As happened in Vietnam the people of the region we call Iraq (an artificially created country for which British colonialists drew the borders to suit themselves) will then be free, for the first time in over 100 years, to draw up their own boundaries. Bush/Brown, GET OUT OF IRAQ NOW.

Neil, Gloucestershire, England

Mr BushÂ´s comparison of the American project in Japan at the end of WW2 and the situation in Iraq is naive.

Japan was a united country that was totally, militarily defeated. America was waging war on the entire civilian population of Japan and dropped two nuclear bombs and obliterated two cities to prove it. The Japanese were united behind the Emperor and obeyed his authority. When the Emperor finally took control of the Cabinet, removed the remaining militarists and agreed to surrender, he had the compliance of the people of Japan. There was no longer any effective opposition. Japan had no surviving friends, only enemies - a Soviet Union angered by previous defeat (1905) - and an embittered China which could one day rise against it. The Japanese knew it was over.

By contrast, Iraq is an extremely divided country with mutually hostile groups and they all hate the Americans. Iraq is in a state of civil war. The US wonÂ´t win this as they didnÂ´t in Somalia, oil or no oil.

cerronevado, Malaga, Spain

When will Bush admit failure? One minute he blames Pakistan for not doing enough. Next minute its the Iraqi government. Everyone is a terrorist except Americans. Perhaps Its the Americans who are the terrorists and I expect Bush to blame Cheney and his team to be responsible for that. The country that should be most loved for its enterprising and generous people is hated the most in the world for all the death it has bestowed the world over. Wake up Americans. YOU DESERVE BETTER.Bombings never solved problems. Bogus intelligence to justify huge military expenditures do not make you more secure. In fact all these policies cause hatred,death,global warming,discontentment and poverty. Its American dollars going down the drain and its the American people who are more threatened by the policies of American administration.And you are getting poorer every day.VOTE FOR PEACE.

shehzad farrukh, london, UK

The war againt Iraq was won easily, and ended when Saddam Hussein was toppled. Winning the peace is proving hard, but that is no reason to give up. What will it achieve the US or the rest of the world to let Iraq fall into full scale civil war? The comparison with Vietnam is a poor choice to make, and there is no need. Simply, those advocating the US pull their troops out before Iraq has stabilised should be asked what they think will happen next.

paddy gourlay, dumfries, UK

What Bush also fails to mention is that past American policies also created regimes that were the root cause of "killing fields" such as Sadam Hussein, Pinochet and many Latin American despots. Funny how the march to stop communism had created the same tyrannical regimes (incredulously labeled democratic) that they claimed to avoid. Slap on a democratic label and turn a blind eye was the norm.
Outside of Israel, democracy has never worked in the Middle East, and in Israel it is democracy for Jews, only. The only way for democracy to work in Iraq is to teach the next generation about tolerance and forgiving, but that will never happen. There is no solution as long as religion rules the country.

Charles, Seattle, USA

Including Japan into the discussion and looking only at Perl Harbour is wrong. Google "Rape of Nanking" and you'll see why. Japanese interests in China were bombed, causing Japan to start a war (not too dissimilar to 911...). Ultimately, they were desparate because they needed energy, but the US was denying them, resulting in the attack on Perl.

The whole Iraq thing is a sham anyway. Bush senior has his pockets in Carlisle, which profits handsomely from the war (along with Haliburton, et al). It doesnt hurt his pocket that his son signs the cheques. And post-war reconstruction is even more lucrative, being paid for with opil belonging to another sovereign nation.

So the Bush family gets rich, through Iraq oil, and the blood of US soldiers brave (gullible) enough to believe their lying president.

As I said, its all a sham. And do you know the worst part? A government is a reflection of the values its people hold.

Roberto Maietta, London, UK

"Our nation was misled by the Bush administration in an effort to gain support for the invasion of Iraq under false pretences, leading to one of the worst foreign policy blunders in our history."

Quote for truth!

Stanzler, NY, USA

What an interesting parallel to draw and obviously symptomatic of Bush's ignorance. US forces withdrew from Vietnam to avoid a much larger and catastrophic defeat at the hands of a determined foe. The US attempt to sabotage democracy in Vietnam by forestalling elections was at least successful and led to the continued suffering of the Vietnamese people. Had the Vietnamese subsequently launched attacks on US civilian targets they would have been historically justified - given the huge numbers of civilians killed by the US - yet they ultimately chose to rebuild and eventually forgive. Now that is a lesson to be learned.

Anthony, London, UK

Listening to Bush speech is disturbing me a lot. If American has not been in Viet Nam , millions of Vietnamese would not have lost there life!
The country had lost the following generation labours as the consequence of the orange chemical ! children was born with defects and land got poison which cant grown anything for years. Look at Viet Nam now under new goverment ! American still has not learn their lesson.

Miss Sai gon, London, uk

When are the Americans going to realize the rest of the world doesn't want to be like them.

If they hadn't been in South East Asia in the first place, promoting their idealism, they wouldn't have had to leave in glorious defeat.

It's more complex this time, with Administration ties to Haliburton oil, 40 year no bid Multinational contracts and control of the Iraqi banking etc, not to mention settling an old score, but the result will again be the same.

The Green Zone that controls the $$$ interests is to be protected....that's why they are there, but misery for a generation of Iraqi's that follows the civil war carnage that is surely coming.

F.S.Summers, NY./,

We all know President Bush has trouble with facts. Like Humpty Dumpty they are what he says they are. Neither more than or less than. No WMD in Iraq the real world really means they do exist if President Bush says they exist.
We also know that he has trouble finding his feet in the situation he has made for himself. Perhaps he should realise it is because they are so often in his mouth. Read a book George, preferably one on the history of the war in Vietnam.

D R Cramer, Welwyn, Hertfordshire,

How about a tripartite division of Iraq into a Kurdish north, a Sunni centre and a Shia south?

Of course it will mean millions of refugees as people move out to their respective "safe zones."

It might sound lunacy but the present situation, with a 40% Sunni pitted against a 60% Shia population not to speak of the Kurdish question in the north which includes about 15 million Kurds, is also lunacy. Iraq is in a state of protracted civil war as part of the fall-out from the legacy of the Saddam Hussein years, and is actually not reducible to the Anglo-American occupation, even though that is such an important complicating factor.

There is NO WAY the Americans are going to be be able to bring peace to Iraq, given the dynamics involved. They are not merely situational but entrenched. The roots of it all lie in mishandling the Palestinian question post-WW2. Too late now!

cerronevado, Malaga, Spain

At one time I was for the war, but it was more a reaction because of 911. Once I realized that Iraq has absolutely nothing to do with 911 I began to be against the war.

Bush is wasting our soldiers lives, period.

Iraq is a fraud and we need to get Bin Ladin, not waste our time and treasure in Iraq.

Joe Lawson, Cocoa , Florida

What a fool the C grade President is. How the world is endangered by his stupidity, in war, the NPT and the environment.
What breathtaking distortion of history. Read Seymour Hersh's The Dark Side of Camelot. Vietnam was wrong and genocidal and ecocidal. Many innocent people were killed through American terrorism. Many children were maimed through American use of biological and chemical weapons. Vietnam was also a war based on lies, check out the Gulf of Tonkin on Google. Nixon and Kissinger ordered the illegal bombing of Cambodia and murdered over a million innocent civilians and bombed Cambodia into a convulsive Natavistic response. American war crimes were killing fields too. See Shawcross's book Side Show. What homespun garbage. USA was beaten in Vietnam and it lost credibility because it lied and committed horrific war crimes including 1000s of genetically damaged children .
What crappy humbug.

barrie machin, Fujikawaguchikomachi, Japan

Bush avoided Vietnam when he had the chance to join the line of battle. Today, the Republican elite are just as rare on the Iraq battlefield.

Pete Swinford, Lafayette, Indiana, USA

Has anybody else noticed the fact that the Democrats were the ones who originally compared the war in Iraq to Vietnam? Now that the White House is now also making the comparison, they flop and condemn Bush's lamentable sense of history?

Just a thought....

Justin Driscoll, Fort Campbell, Kentucky

Before the 2003 Bush attack on Iraq many people said it would be a quagmire like Vietnam. Cheney, Rumsfield, Bush, and their supporters said it was an invalid comparison. After tens of thousands of deaths Bush now accepts the comparison.

George Purnell, Caistorville, Canada

And of course the government would never lie about something like that!

Ever hear of "auto-rotation?" It's a technique to allow a pilot to use the stored momentum of the main rotor to execute a soft landing. Essentially the pilot allows the helicopter to freefall towards the ground, keeping the main rotor windmilling all the way down. Then, as the helicopter gets closet to the ground, the collective pitch is pulled up trading rotor RPM's for enough lift to slow the fall and allow a softer landing.

So, for a helicopter to suffer mechanical damage sufficient to prevent an autorotation landing, we are talking about main structure collapse, or failure of the rotor hub itself. And those sorts of things don't happen without outside "assistance".

Stanzler, NY, USA

"The ideals and interests that led America to help the Japanese turn defeat into democracy are the same that lead us to remain engaged in Afghanistan and Iraq,"

Er, so. The Americans are going to A-bomb Afghanistan and Iraq?"

The analogy that "Pete" attempts to draw is not historically parallel. America's decision to drop nuclear weapons on Japan was reached as an alternative to invasion -- not as a aftermath to invasion. Additionally, at the time that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were bombed in 1945, the United States held the world's monopoly on nuclear weapons (albeit possessing very few). Today, more countries have access to such weapons, and their use by one nation could result in a far more destabilzing effect than it did 62 years ago.

John Greenup, Crestwood, Kentucky/USA

Perhaps the biggest tragedy of Mr. Bush's remarks is that so few in the U.S. are listening to him anymore. Bush-fatigue has set in to such a degree that he really has become a "non-president," irrelevant rather than lame-duck.

Arthur, Boston, USA

How on earth Pearl Harbour, Korea and Vietnam are in the same category as Iraq is beyond any sane thought. None of these conflicts had anything to do with terrorism but were down to a variety of reasons. Obviously Pearl harbor was an opportunist raid by Japan designed to reduce Americas Pacific sea power at a stroke but was ill thought out by their leaders. Far from holding back the USA it had the opposite effect. Korea and Vietnam were down to paranoid administrations scared witless over communist advances in Asia and they wanted to stop them. Korea was a stalemate ending in partition of the country and Vietnam ended up as a bloody failure for the US. Even Iraq wasn't about terrorists at first although now Bush needs an excuse for still being there. Bush rather than taking responsibility for this mess is now blaming anyone & everyone except his cadre of neo-cons for creating this civil war. Both Bush & Blair are delusional in the extreme and ought to be sectioned for their own good.

Mike, Alicante, Spain

Yes, and once again Bush makes his speech about comparisons between Vietnam and Iraq, blindly in the face of reality, to a group of VFW fossils who think war, any war, is just dandy. Is it possible that Rove et al. have so successfully protected Bush from knowledge of how much people dislike him personally and his presidency in all its incompentence? Poor guy is in for a hell of a wake-up call once he gets out of office and can watch television again.

JimBob, Los Angeles,CA, USA

How much you wanna bet we learn soon that today's Blackhawk tragedy was enemy fire? Right about now, that's the last thing they'd want us to know, which is exactly what makes me think it's the truth.

JimBob, Los Angeles,CA, USA

Do the words Bush, Iraq and strategy really belong in the same sentence?

KR, Stockport,

Pete, Cov,

Even though I've supported the Iraqi Resistance movements from the start I am deeply saddened by this. It feels as if someone has ripped my heart out and stamped on it.

David, Leeds, UK