There is little doubt that Bush and Cheney are guilty of war crimes, and that the destruction of the tapes is but one aspect of an ongoing cover-up. Unfortunately, there is little reason to believe that they will ever be held accountable for these and other crimes they've committed. The deck has long since been stacked against all who seek justice in this matter. The corporate media in the "land of the free" demonstrates a remarkable lack of curiosity about illegal activities committed by the bush administration. The judiciary has been packed with partisans for whom political considerations vastly outweigh legal principles. Indeed, the only reason there was a Bush 43 presidency is because a corrupt U.S. Supreme Court placed him there in 2000.

Bill Cowan, Beaumont, TX USA

The US S.S.'s CIA :

Defending Life, Liberty and Freedom, the American way?

SC, London, United Kingdom

Bush won't officially be accused of any war crimes, he hasn't officially stated that people (human beings lest we forget) are being tortured in Guantanamo, America isn't officially losing the war on terror. It seems that so long as nothing is said officially, nothing is wrong. So keep on spending billions of dollars on harassing the poorest nations in the name of democracy, and the next time America is attacked the world will officially say what they didn't on 9\11; you deserved it.

Ronald, Swakopmund, Namibia

The problem is that the sum of odds never produces a truth.

fred rounds, weaverville , USA/california

Justine Nicholas, New York, NY, USA

"If the US hadn't done these things, radical fundamentalist Islamists wouldn't have any reason to think about us, except perhaps to sell us oil. In fact, radical fundamentalist Islam might not even exist."

Keep your head in the sand, Justine. It's obviously safer there than facing any reality. I think you need to learn a little more about radical Islamics before you opine any further

Jenny Rowbotham, Oxford, England

We are all susceptible to "legal torture" now, thanks to the Patriot Act. Habeus Corpus does not apply to even citizens of the United States if they are labelled as potential enemies of the United States. In other words, we can be taken and shipped to a foreign country, and tortured, without legal representation. We need to wake up before they come for us.

Mike Sawyer, Heavener, OK

War crimes and secret government corruption are sorts of EVIL that can incite hatred and push moderate Islam to radical Islam. Sensible people all over the globe, whatever their beliefs, desire human rights and the rule of law. The United States is not doing a good job of demonstrating and/or living up to those ideals, so their position in the battle of ideas is weak. The torture strategy has backfired, and the Global War on Terror appears meekly more successful than the War on Drugs - another decades long losing struggle that restricts our freedom and bleeds our treasury dry.

D. McQuigan, Annapolis, USA

What is hard to beleive is we have laws that provide for the arrest of dumya and dickyboy under the False Statement Statue, officially Title 18: Section 1001. It provides a penalty of up to five years in prison, a fine, or both to: whoever, in any manner within the jurisdiction of the excutive, legislative, or judicial branch of the Goverment of the United States, knowingly and willfully (1) falsilfies, conceals, or covers up by any trick, scheme or device a material fact; (2) makes any material false,fictitious,or fraudulent statement or representation; or (3) makes or uses any false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or representation; or (4) makes or uses any false writings or documents knowing the same to contain any material false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or entry....So why doesn't someone in congress like john conyers have these two aressted?

J.C, stymeville, usa/mi

"The baddies are the ones who want you..to die if we do not convert to Wahabist Islam. The good-guys are the ones who think that the foregoing is a bad idea. See how simple? All you need is a teeny-tiny bit of brain!......Dr.Guido, Carmel, CA/USA"

No, Dr Guido - not quite so simple.

With a bit more brain, one would see that countries that pick people off the street, stick them in jail, deny them access to counsel or courts are the bad guys.

When the US sees such things happening elsewhere, they come up with fancy names "axis of evil", "terrorists" etc.

However, that's exactly what the US does itself - even snatching people illegally from other countries.

And then tortures them.

As you say Dr Guido - simple, the US is one of the bad guys.

Clive, Epsom, England

To Robert Cookson, Milton Keynes, UK:

There are clear international laws that describe what torture is and prohibit its use. The Bush administration knew they were breaking the law. That's why they destroyed the tapes, an action classified as perjury under the law. If they didn't think it was wrong, why did they destroy the tapes?

Chuck, Bristol, UK

Justine Nicholas, New York, NY, USA

"If the US hadn't done these things, radical fundamentalist Islamists wouldn't have any reason to think about us, except perhaps to sell us oil. In fact, radical fundamentalist Islam might not even exist."

Well said Justine!

Chuck, Bristol, UK

Betty Tolsma - you chose to have four children under six. Suck it up.

Price, Birmingham,

That sleep deprivation is considered torture is a laugh. Try living the life of a military wife, mother of four children under six and learn something about sleep deprivation.

Betty Tolsma, Schertz, USA/Texas

The problem we all have (or should have) with the US President permitting torture anywhere in the world is because the US is the self proclaimed leader of the free world. What is the free world free to do if not go about its business without fear of oppressive government?
It already reaches into the heart of our lives, with British police empowered to kill us because they SUSPECT us of being an armed terrorist. No charge, no trial, just punishment.
The confidences between lawyer and client, a freedom gained over hundreds of years and for excellent reasons to do with the need for the citizen to be advised without fear, something that even the communists in the Soviet Union never took away, has been lost because of this new idea that the means justify the ends of defeating terrorism and crime.

Pace James in Melbourne USA and others of the same ilk, not all of the victims of the torturers are guilty and it would only take an administrative error for you to become a victim too!

Peter Ryder, Middlewich, Cheshire

Mendel Peterson: Hear! Hear! America is a great country and any thinking person can only admire the principles on which it was founded. What a terrible tragedy then that it's all being sacrified to the stupidity and arrogance of a bunch of crooks. The American people and the rest of the world deserves much better.

John, Stafford, UK

Solid story, as usual by Andrew Sullivan a top reporter published by a top newspaper (timesonline) Well done folks!

This type of story cannot be found in the U.S media. I wonder why ?

jayil, london, uk

In response to: "Can you really take seriously a country that behaves like a blood-sucking leech"

You know nothing of the world my friend, you truly believe that the US is needed by everyone else when if you checked you account book on such things like exports, investments into the US etc, Britain is second, third after Japan... without us matey your crackpot nation would go under very quickly... I am part of a growing movement of people here that want us to break the special relationship.

In response to: "Like vivisecting wounded American soldiers and sawing their heads off after cutting their tongues out and castrating them? "

Personally, if it had been my daughter, I would have done pretty much the same too, when you see a "trophy" video on the net, of a father with three small children all with their hands up in the air trying to flee Fallujah, to see a Marine line his heavy machine turret at him, to see him and his toddlers blown away...

Your country makes me sick.

Ian Watson, Gillingham, Dorset

Andrew Sullivan spoils his case by failing even to acknowledge the difficult position the intelligence agencies, and the President and his advisers, have found themselves in since the 9/11 atrocities. They were excoriated in the media for failures in intelligence leading up to that disaster and put under overwhelming pressure by the public to gain future intelligence at almost any cost, leading to very difficult decisions over interrogation technique - what works, what is excessive etc. Let us at least acknowledge the dilemma here even if we then judge that the wrong decisions have been taken over appropriate methods. I note also Sullivan, from a more balanced position, has become increasingly strident in his attacks on Bush as the presidential elections have got under way. A further point - the parallel with Watergate is ludicrous - there was no break-in this time and destruction of tapes is standard practice with security matters.

Robert Cookson, Milton Keynes, UK

As some have posted, there is not much we can do. In the UK almost a million people expressed their opposition to the invasion of Iraq by taking to the streets ... yet the protest was ignored.

Personally, I think more effective than protest is economic activism - the US respects only the Dollar. So, what have I done, and what can you do?
Don't buy Starbucks, buy Cafe Nero;
Don't buy Gillette products, buy Unilever's:
Don't buy Philip Morris cigarettes, buy Imperial Tobacco;
Don't buy Dell or Compaq, buy Sony or Toshiba;
etc.

And then write/email these companies and tell them that you have stopped buying their goods in protest at US foreign policy.

Then hope others do the same.

Richard, London, UK

Who is the more clever, more talented leader:
Bush or Bin Laden?
Who is doing his job best?
The answer must be galling for Bush supporters.
Next time America:
Get a smart President!

jimbo, Oslo, Norway

I concur with Andrew Milner from Japan. American citizen are culpable in this horror because Mr. Bush is their duly elected leader. I will not comment about the British because I am not a citizen of that country.

I did not vote for Mr. Bush, but he is my President. Yes, as an American I feel deeply ashamed that he represents me. I have felt that way for over seven years. Fortunately, we do have a process to address this misstake in the United States. I hope to God that we do so.

Watts Taylor, Cincinnati, Ohio, USA

The baddies are the ones who want you and your friends and family and kids---amd me and mine--to die if we do not convert to Wahabist Islam.
The good-guys are the ones who think that the foregoing is a bad idea.
See how simple? All you need is a teeny-tiny bit of brain!

Dr.Guido, Carmel, CA/USA

"I wonder what methods the British used in the 1970s to elicit information from suspected IRA members and supporters?

Mark F., Baltimore, USA"

Very much the same - that's why the Irish Republic, supported from the sidelines by US Senators and Congressmen, successfully took the British Government to the Hague where they were found guilty.

The torture and illegal detention of IRA suspects by the British Army did more for the Marxist Provincial IRA's recruitment campaign than any number of misguided marches and collections in the USA ever did.

Dave , Preston, UK

So, could someone please remind me, what is the difference between the goodies, and, the baddies? and, who are the goodies, and, who are the baddies?

Kevin Sullivan, Roehampton,, London

"Any reasonable person examining all the evidence we have - "

The evidence you have so far is heresay and a reportt from the NYT which is not only known for it's hatred of the Bush administration but also for publishing many falsehoods to further it's own leftist adgenda. Any reasonable person would walt for the 'facts' and not make such libelous assumptions as you do Mr Sullivan.

John O'Connor, Limerick, Ireland

"Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." Since Gitmo is definitely subject to the US jurisdiction (even though the servitude angle is a stretch), the constitutional rights of at least one amendment do extend to Gitmo, why not all?
Of course, I have no legal training to learn why the Constitution is just a piece of paper now.

Nydra Karlen, Bellevue, USA/NE

My my - around 166 comments, boy aren't we lucky - we can comment. Waterboarding... torture? maybe - guess it depends.. is listening to heavy rock for hours on end, or white noise, or standing naked in the cold, or having your nose broken by a huge paratrooper... who knows - who cares? Those who are really suffering are the parents and families of the troops fighting this war, not knowing if their husband, wife, son, daughter, father, mother, brother or sister, aunt or uncle will be coming home - that is real torture. The rest - well honestly - who cares.. no pain no gain - if waterboarding saves a few more families the pain of losing a loved one - them maybe - just maybe its not torture.

Martin, Atlanta, GA

Does George think he will walk away from his legacy in 2008? No chance. His relative powerlessness - unless, by a freak event such as another 9/11 his buddies return under President Guilihuckamacain- will ensure that, over the next decade,, he will be haunted by journalists, historians, class action lawyers, and self-justifying memoir-touting pals.
We always think the current leader is the Worst Ever, but, insider book deal by book deal, we shall learn why George is Special. One might even land him in court.
May you retire into interesting times, George.

john, Los Angeles, California

What people seem to forget is that discussions like the ones on this board wouldn't be necessary if the US didn't have the interventionist foreign policy it's had since the end of WW I.

The US didn't establish colonies through mandate, as the British and French did in the Middle East and Africa. However, the US used the fall of the Ottoman Empire as an opportunity to install and/or prop up thugs who were friendly to the US. (Think of the Saudi Royal Family, the Shah of Iran and just about every Israeli government in that country's history.)

If the US hadn't done these things, radical fundamentalist Islamists wouldn't have any reason to think about us, except perhaps to sell us oil. In fact, radical fundamentalist Islam might not even exist.

Justine Nicholas, New York, NY, USA

Of course the US uses torture; Of course it is wrong and unjustifiable by any sane human being. If not then, of course, they can use it on us when they catch 'us'.

dominic, Teddington,

Tim Bishop: Be more specific.

Like most Americans you appear to believe that the USA won WWII all by themselves. Let's not forget that the British defeated the Germans in North Africa and it was the Russians that defeated them in Berlin. In fact, if not for the Russians, it is unlikely that the US and British forces would have prevailed on the Western Front.

Anyway, even if your version of history was true, I'm afraid that it doesn't give the USA a free pass to destroy the "way of life" for other people around the globe, including its own people.

Bill Smith, Springfield, VA

The question is whether there is anything intrinsically wrong with torture particularly since we already accept it in our day to day lines. For example the proverb "No pain, no gain". We force our kids to eat their sprouts. We force the dyslexic to read and write, which for many is a terrible torment: all for their own supposed good, but not by their own choice. And children don't actually need sprouts to live. Even reading and writing is a need of the modern world, not of human beings. And we torture ourselves with our own vanities.

I reckon the real problem with torture is its administration. Torturing the right person is a real problem. And further knowing the point at which they have told you everything is very difficult. The judicial administration of torture needs to be judicially formalised, and the science of torture given more study.

Gordon Snell, London, UK

Europe - please ignore Mr. Tim Bishop from Florida, who obviously has been asleep for the last ten or 20 years. I'm frankly sick to death of Americans who keep whining "but we saved you in World War II" as if everyone in Europe was sitting in their bedroom closets with their hands over the ears crying "Save me America, I'll be eternally grateful and allow you any sort of atrocity from now until the end of time!"

Mr. Bishop, our brave American soldiers did indeed go to Europe and their sacrifices no doubt contributed to the end of the war and the defeat of Hitler BUT WE WERE NOT THE ONLY ONES WHO ACHIEVED THAT! Read a little history, for gods sake!

L.D., Denver, Colorado

Much ado about nothing methinks...

CNN Tonight with Anderson Cooper interviewed an ex-Navy Seal Larsen about waterboarding. Larsen says it is a terrible thing truely torture.

Strange though... this guy has volunteered TWICE to be waterboarded !

A year ago he agreed to be videotaped and there on UTUBE you can watch him endure 24 MINUTES yes 24 MINUTES of waterboarding ! But get this... it was the Producer of the video who finally said enough is enough and stopped it... not Larsen... maybe the Producer needed a latte ?

Anyways... I know our guys are tough but 24 minutes ? Abu Z. apparently cracked after 35 SECONDS and the famous KSM (AQ #3) lasted a brutal 90 SECONDS. Where does Bin Laden find these WIMPS ?

And in 2002 Nancy Pelosi yup our top Democrat House Speaker no less.. and her Congressional Intel committee colleagues got a CIA tour and approved of the techniques including waterboarding. No objections were raised.

Petras Vilson, Godawa, Canada

As a commenter on another forum pointed out the other day there is an ongoing power struggle in Washington between the Congress, the Judiciary and the Executive Branch. The Executive Branch though are the ones who hold the trump card since they control the armed forces. To paraphrase something that Stalin was reported to have said about the Pope: - How many divisions does the Chief Justice have?

Andrew Pearson, Montreal, Canada

Europe. Don't you have something better to do that sit around pontificating about those who preserved your way of life? Like the global warming hype. That seems like your speed, rather than watch the sad play of decline unfold before you?

tim bishop, Tampa, FL, USA

There is a famous joke: Someone asking for directions is told... "well I wouldn't start from here!" The sad truth is that any political observer or journalist worth spit could have seen almost a decade ago that George W Bush as a Republican Nominee, was, to put it mildly, not a wise call, let alone allowing him and his core constituents to grandstand into the White House. Two years of the Media allowing themselves to fiddle while Rome was burning over a Presidential BJ is not easily reversed.

David Knopfler , Rome, Italy

That the us gov't has become a foul stinking cesspool beyond redemption is no longer in question - and I am ashamed of this gov't, it is no longer my gov't. The corruption is as deep at home as it is abroad and the system has erected barriers to any possible change within the system. That leaves few avenues for redress . . . It truly is the end of the us empire and it cannot expire quickly enough.

3dshooter, Middleton, ID/us

In plain English, waterboarding is torture. That it was done to a very evil thug does not matter - what matters is that we chose to fight barbarism by becoming barbarians. The moral guilt of this can only be atoned for by bringing the perpetrators to justice - swiftly, not a generation from now. And before the ad hominem attacks begin, SEN McCain is more of a hawk than the current President, yet he opposes torture. (Perhaps he opposes it because he suffered it, but he does have a keen sense of personal honor, which most of our so-called leaders, in both parties, lack.)

Lloyd A. Conway, Charlotte, MI, USA

I think it's sad so many people from the States commenting on this article have used it to avoid discussing the rights and wrongs of a Federal governmant acting illegally and have thrown in many unrelated ideas such as Europe being envious of america, or how all Eurpeans hate America etc.

It's just not clever. People in Britain HATE big government. We don't hate Americans.

The thought of Bush sitting in the Whitehouse watching a video of one of the alleged terrorists being tortured then sanctioning the distruction of the tape makes Nixon & Watergate look like a storm in a tea cup.

But maybe Bush thought it was an episode of 24?

James, Salisbury, UK

Would any of the critics want President Bush"s job?. At present we can still speak critically, freely. Under the infamous dictators this was a capital offence. None of us would condone this torture, none of us would want that Presidential responsibility. The question that begs answer is, "How long have we got until our freedom of speech is also curtailed?."

Dirty Dick, Taunton, UK

To William Athanasidy:

1- Andrew sullivan is a rightist, not a leftist.

2- Your understanding of the concept of rule of law is naught.

Tom Civiletti, OAK GROVE, Oregon, USA

War crimes? Like raping and beheading children in front of their parents? Like vivisecting wounded American soldiers and sawing their heads off after cutting their tongues out and castrating them? Like baking the sons of families who disagree to let Al Qaida rape their 9 year old daughters in one-night marriages? Oh, that's right, the Left only cares if these inhuman beasts are made to feel uncomfortable in our quest to keep them from flying more planeloads of children into their mommies' office towers.
After the next massive terror attack, we'll see if any on the Left still are concerned with the civil rights of these subhuman scum.

William Athanasidy, Cortlandt Manor , NY, USA

To Ian Watson,

Can you really take seriously a country that behaves like a blood-sucking leech; looking for a new host every time the wind blows? Why doesn't your beautiful government cut off relations with the US if we're nothing but war criminals?

To Lisa Vives,

"U.S. mainstream media is now in the hands of corporations who wouldn't use a story like this if their life depended on it."

Honey, it was an American paper that first broke this story of destroyed CIA tapes (a small paper known as the New York Times). And you don't have to tell me what the French, and other Europeans, did to Africa... I lived it. And now they lecture the US about morality... Please!

Haile Mohawe, Cleveland, USA

To Rob Conrad of Chicago,

You say I shouldn't disrespect cultures older than my own? My friend, I am originally from Ethiopia - a country with more than 3000 years of history. I came to this country because I wanted a better life and I live here because I LOVE this country. So if you love France so damn much, why not move there?

You also say we have lost in Iraq and Afghanistan? What planet are you living on? Is the Taliban still in power in Afghanistan? Do they control ONE city in all of Afghanistan? Is Saddam, or either of his sons, still in power in Iraq? Is Al Qaeda in Iraq controlling any Iraqi cities? Is that terrorist group gaining any ground or momentum? NO, NO, NO, NO, and NO! So please explain to me how we are losing in either country.

And the Vietnam War was lost here at home, not on the battlefields of that country.

Haile Mohawe, Cleveland, USA

my view is directly targeted to mr. steve varick of mesa arizonz.....mr. varick you say these people are pigs. Well does that mean that those who torture at gitmo and at abu grahib are pigs too.....because you cannot justify two wrongs to make a right. The fact that Bush lied to not only the American people about weapons of mass destruction he lied to the world...to me that makes Bush a pig.

dawn dawn, brampton, canada

Cowboy diplomacy works. The moral on consensus-building from the John Wayne movies is that sometimes you can only get civility when you are the one at the card table with a loaded shotgun. Speaking for the 58 million voters who approved of Pres. Bush, I'd be in favor of expanding torture to include certain E.U. diplomats and journalists.

Bill R., Gresham, USA OR

Tickle them with a feather. I’m sure Zubaydah and his ilk will take their bat and ball and go home if only we treated them with the dignity and respect that they deserve.......

Lots of bleating from helpless lambs but that doesn't make you safe in bed at night.

If you want to go some way to understanding/defeating the enemy (as this is war) you might have to get your hands dirty at some point. Frankly I don't care whether Zubaydah was the subject of torture, or as a person who scorns democracy, he even has those rights won by democratic means available to him.

Lots of focus on bush et al. why not focus a little more on the people whose sworn intention is to destroy you? is that reality too hard to confront?

simon, sydney, oz

"The only trouble with taking Bush to the Hague is that the US has not signed the treaty, meaning that US citizens cannot be taken to the court of human rights. Strange that?!

Rob, Singapore"

And those in Guantanamo Bay and shipped to secret CIA prisons to be tortured were covered by what law? By what treaty? Did any of you see recently where a load of people turned up to arrest Bushand Cheney? The security people and the intended targets fair wet themselves with fright, Bush and Cheney are definitely running scared now...

Bush will retire most likely to the Bush family fortress in Paraguay, he will be the harder of the two to bring to justice, Blair however, sooner or later won't be protected by a diplomatic title and according to some of the world's finest legal minds, Blair is very much someone who CAN be put to trial for war crimes.

Ian Watson, Gillingham, Dorset

These terrorists are cruel and ruthless animals. They are criminals that have no regard for international law and in my opinion therefore they do not deserve any protection that would normally be given an enemy in accordance with traditional rules of war. Quit whining about how these pigs are treated.... Look at how they treated innocents like Daniel Pearl, Nicholas Berg, Kim Sun-il, Paul Marshall Johnson, Jr., Olin Eugene Armstrong, Jr., Jack Hensley, Shosei Koda, Georgi Lazov, Kenneth John Bigley and some 3000 or more other civilian men, women and children. They deserve everything they get.

Steve Varick, Mesa, AZ

Citizens of the US and UK, unless you "hate it and leave it", you are complicit in and culpable of war crimes and crimes against humanity committed in your name. But if you can't bring yourselves to renounce your countries and their immoral foreign policies, than I suggest you get into character: Grow a moustache, wear a black hat and suck it up. Because you're the bad guys now.

Andrew Milner, Yokohama, Japan

Torture of suspects will save us? Cool. I recommend extending torture to all aspects of our legal system. Rip some finger nails out and we'll stop overtime parking tout suite. Think what a good lashing will do for the return of overdue library books. The possibilities are endless. The millenium has arrived.

John James Kavanagh, Mercer Island, USA WA

David,

Nietzsche said it long before Ian Banks:

"When you stare into the abyss, the abyss stares back at you" and "Be careful when you fight monsters, lest you become one."

Stephen, watford, UK

If Ron Paul were president, habeas corpus would NEVER have been taken away from the people. He would have NEVER signed the unconstitutional "Patriot Act, " Homeland Security Act, Military Commissions Act, the John Warner National Defense Authorization Act, all of which have gutted our civil liberties. If we don't get a president in office who can actually represent the people, it's going to be all over for the American people.

1. Get rid of hackable, paperless voting machines

2. SupportRON PAUL 2008

Kim, Dallas, TX

IMPEACH Bush!!!!

Sophia, Texas, USA

The only trouble with taking Bush to the Hague is that the US has not signed the treaty, meaning that US citizens cannot be taken to the court of human rights. Strange that?!

Rob, Singapore,

Ship Bush to De Hague (International Tribunal) and have him
judged for his War-Crimes -Now! That would be JUSTICE, cause ther is simply no way he would ever get off the hook! The last one who was sent there was Slobodan Milosevic - a simple Boyscout if compared to Bush....

pat, la, cali

Respect for the rule of law is paramount for a republic's survival. Obeying the rule of law gives a country the moral high ground as it seeks to thwart those who would do us harm. The founders of the republic pledged their lives, their fortunes and their sacred honor to create a beacon of hope for all to behold. That republic recedes as we become more like our enemies.

Peter Mayo, Peaks Island, USA/Maine

Torture is a total waste of time, which has been proved again and again. Those that are tortured will tell the torturer what they want to hear whether it is true or not just to stop being tortured. There is no way the results can be called intelligence that can be relied upon. What it does do is create more and more subversive groups though.

Liz Kwantes, Cookham, UK

To ERic in harrogate: you bet your bottom dolalr (not worth diddly sqat, I know) that our security people knew what was going on and therefore Blair would have been informed of the results if not the exact details. He was Mussolini. There's a place for them both in The Hague.

Vive Chirac!

oldasiahand, Nice, France

Bravo Andrew Sullivan! Keep up the good work.

Bruch Sidel, Dallas, TX

Nice summarization
Agree 100% with you Andrew.
Thx

Danny, Hillside, USA

I wonder what methods the British used in the 1970s to elicit information from suspected IRA members and supporters?

Mark F., Baltimore, USA

A copy of the Magna Carta is being auctioned this week. So it would be an opportune time to remind ourselves that the hard won freedoms and liberties that George Bush and associates are happily trashing (the writ of habeas corpus being foremost) were enshrined in this document.

If Bush is not impeached, it would set a horrible example for future leaders who believe that they know better than 1000 years of legal precedence.

Also, is it just me or do some of our right-wing brothers need to crack open a copy of Strunk and White and possibly a dictionary or two?

Philip, Victoria, Canada

"Questions i ask whats the difference between torture mentioned in that report and torture on these tapes?

Warrior, Ire, Munster"

Russia and China don't pretend to anything but, America likes to think of itself as the "bastion" of justice, democracy, law and rights yet this in reality is a stage managed veneer and the truth of the matter is that America is probably as barbaric, if not more barbaric than these nations as China and Russia don't have the death toll of Iraq, Vietnam and elsewhere on their hands in recent times.

Can you really take a country seriously that states its the world leader on justice, democracy, law and rights when it supports dictatorships, arms apartheid regimes, stifles free speech and rights and kidnaps people and holds them without rights or trials for half a decade...?

Ian Watson, Gillingham, Dorset

As Homer in Oklahoma says proper police work does not need torture. Bush was a failing President when 9/11 saved him. It enabled Bush to talk up Al Quaida from a small collection of fundamentalist nutters into a global conspiracy.. Nothing like a war to boost re-election chances! The US public fell for the rhetoric and waved him on. Failing to capture Bin Laden Bush turned to Iraq, talking up the threat of WMD. This time it was a conventional war he could not lose! However, he totally failed to plan for winning the peace. Net result - thousands of innocent Iraqis dead, chaos and a ruined country! Torturing terror suspects will never work. For the few pieces of usable intelligence we get there are tons of rubbish to distract the intelligence services. At the same time western democracy is discredited and we turn foolish and gullible young Muslims into fanatics. Single handedly the USA has boosted Islamic fundamentalism and terrorism. Well done Mr Bush - Bin Laden must love you!!

Kevin Miller, Tonbridge, UK

To Rob Conrad,

First off, how do you categorize a country winning a war? Occupancy? Government toppling? Troop killing? The US and its allies eliminated a large portion of the Taliban, and pushed them out? Does that sound like losing to you? Iraq's capital city of Baghdad was toppled and its government dissolved in 3 weeks by the US military and its allies. Do you call that losing? Vietnam could have been won by our military, but we had sissies in politics like you back then that dont let our country fight a war to win. People like you want us to fight the war nicely, and make it look good in the public's eye without anyone getting hurt. ITS WAR!!!! People need to be able to fight to win, not bicker about politics back home. If our government had people that had backbone and will, we would have this conflict done with. Just because we have troops being killed by small skirmished doenst mean we are losing the war. You need to get your facts straight, for you make me sick.

Chris, Tampa, FL, USA

Waterboarding's torture, and torture's wrong - sorry, that's the truth. If you defend them, then you have lost track of any decent principles/way of life which you might claim to be trying to defend. But this loss of vision is not new.
In a similar loss of principles, Bush Sr was a prime mover in the morally indefensible 'Drugs War' which over the last decades has (completely predictably) created vast networks of organised crime which daily damage the lives of hundreds of millions of people.
Bush Jr has extended the 'fight' to terrorists, most of whom were figments of Fundy Right imagination when he started, but whom he has caused to thrive world-wide by his actions. Terrorists were grateful for the chance to use, and build on, the criminal networks created by earlier US policy.
If America is brought low, it will be because of its own leaders' moral shallowness and obstinacy, not because of external threats which were negligible before it fertilised them through unethical policy.

Jerry Dorey, Martigné-Ferchaud, FRANCE

"There's a danger in war that you come to resemble your enemy" - Iain M Banks (Consider Phlebas).

Whilst I'm not claiming USA will resort to shock terrorism on other countries, I do fear the challenges of fighting terrorists could bring about shifts in Western values amongst those in power, which impinge on everyone's rights - the use of torture being one of them. Lets hope those in charge don't get used to it, or develop a taste for it.

I can't really imagine CIA dudes using analogue tape video recording cameras. I'm no expert and yes - I bet tape is still used in high quality productions with all the high-end fancy expensive gear. However would CIA really go to those lengths... my bet is they are in the digital age.

David S, Manchester, UK

Thank you for that lucid account of the morality of our US leadership. I am utterly ashamed to be associated with such evil and corrupt people. I find it hard to trust such men with the safety of my wife and family.

albert smith, seattle, usa

Haile Mohawe: France won all the colonial wars in Africa it started when it invaded basically defenseless countries there, replaced their rulers and carried off their natural resources for decades, enriching themselves, impoverishing Africans. Africans say France is still at it - supporting factions in the Ivory Coast, Congo, Rwanda - to keep the raw materials coming.

P.S. Great writing by Andrew Sullivan! Too bad U.S. mainstream media is now in the hands of corporations who wouldn't use a story like this if their life depended on it.

Lisa Vives, New York, USA

Here's a good way to resolve the torture/not torture debate: anyone who thinks waterboarding does not constitute torture and/or an abuse of human rights should consent to rendition and bing waterboarded themselves in an identical fashion to these people.

I imagine that would change many an opinion. These methods are unacceptable and reducing society to the lowest common denominator.

Peter Harris, Edinburgh, UK

I am an american born and bred, and have to say I am sickened and apalled by the actions of our goverment.I just want people around the world to know that what is happening is not necessarily the will of the american people.Many,I hope the majority would bring this madness to a screeching halt if we could but it is not that easy.Our government has grown too powerful for the common man to have much effect on.It will probably only change with a full bloody revolution.

R.Evans, St.George, Utah USA

Can't Democrats and Republicans stop for a moment and see that deception or outright lying by this President or ANY President is not a good thing? Lets put aside our tribal masks and spears and at least agree that corruption in Government hurts ALL the people. If YOUR party's President is allowed to lie and decieve the nation....then the OTHER party's President will take the same priviledge when they take power. Let's grow up.

Paul Mardian, Phoenix, Arizona

To Halle Mohawe from Cleveland: are you aware that this counry would not have won the Revolutionary War without France's help? Also to your point: out of the Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan Wars, which of those has America won? Exactly.

Read your history and understand it before you open you criticize cultures older than your own.

Rob Conrad, Chicago, Illinois

Rob Conrad, Chicago, IL

To Joseph from France,

Of course we want to win the war. Are you a fool? What country wouldn't want to win a war they are fighting in (other than France)? But the question is what constitues a victory? Does victory mean America 'expanding its empire,' the way you Euros like to say? Or does it mean leaving Iraq a safe and stable democracy? I believe we are trying to accomplish the latter. As we speak America is stabilizing that country, quelling violence, and building a democratic country (no matter what the original reason for going into that country was). If you don't want us to succeed at doing that, then you must not care one bit for the people of Iraq.

And I find it amusing when you talk about 'together you stand, together you fall.' What does a Frenchman know about winning a war? When was the last time France won anything? Exactly.

Haile Mohawe, Cleveland, USA

What is it with you Europeans? Why do you hate America so much, yet constantly obsess with what's going on in their country? Why do you care about what happens in America? So what if Bush wants to order torture? Is that your business?

Now I'm not the biggest fan of America (especially not Bush) either. But I really don't give a damn about what's happening down there. If you really want to go after violators of human rights, why not talk about the Chinese? The Russians? The Iranians? The N. Koreans? The Cubans? The Burmese? Saddam? The Taliban?

Is America really any worse than any of those other countries or regimes? I don't like American foreign policy, but I absolutely HATE European envy.

John S., Toronto, Canada

"The government is far more incompetent and amateur than the masterminds of Hollywood darkness."

Wiser words have never been spoken. Enough said.

Roger, Chicago, IL, USA

Maybe the US citizens don't feel like getting tasered or otherwise oppressed by the administration's puppets.

Bart Simpson, Springfield, us mo

"water boarding" is at present legal and not torture. It remains one of many interrogation tools.

The whining from both the US and UK left is idiotic. They have no way to deal with the reality of International Islamo-Fascists, who will cheerfully behead them when the British Caliphate is installed.

They have no concept of the differences in the cultural perception of time, namely, "through time," between the industrialized western nations and the "in time" of the agrarian nations of the Middle East and it's multifaceted consequences.

David B. Monier-Williams
Scottsdale, Arizona US

David B. Monier-Williams, Scottsdale , US Arizona

"So exactly how would all you Bush hating left wingers deal with terrorism"
The most effective strategy has been good police work, not global war and mass invasions. The 'terrorists' are are not super-human boogey-men (and women), but individuals committing crimes. Many of the individuals that have committed acts of terrorism in the west (and lived) have been caught by standard police efforts. Several presumed terrorist plots have been stopped by standard police work. Cops on the beat have done more to stop terrorism than armies in the middle east. I am sorry for the deaths of our soldiers sent to Iraq for a stupid mission. I am particularly sad for our soldiers sent to Afghanistan given that that war was quickly forgotten and now turning bad - though not on the front pages yet.
How to stop terrorism - understand the enemy, support standard police efforts, jail Bush and Cheney!

Homer, Oklahoma, US

Clinton could not remember a blowjob so Tim's point is mute!
Of all people the British should now realize the true enemy. It has no country of origin, no nationality just the want of total domination of the world. Most people who have not been touched by these demented peoples agenda still think the world thinks ethically and morally but I am sorry to inform you infidel but naming a teddy bear the wrong name can land you in prison.
As long as the warped, demented, brainwashed individuals are busy elsewhere you are safe to "Christmas" shop, sorry "Holiday" they already have taken that from you in most of your schools!

Phil, Expat, USA

B Branston,

What's under discussion here is not how to 'go after' anyone. It's about the use of and sanctioning of warcrimes.... you know, the same ones that the Nazi's used on their prisoners.

How can we say we are in any way better than those people we decry as 'evil' or 'depraved' when we and the people who are supposed to lead us and set an example - to be pillars of society, actively condone such brutal, soul-less actions. Actions not accepted by modern society or even by either Islam or Christianity...

Bush lauds himself as an upstanding person - as a good person, and yet allows these things to happen. In fact he has actively supported the creation of kidnapping and torture in his quest for global peace and the Amercian way... it's his credibility, honesty and decency that is really under discussion here.

Raymon, London, UK

First, Thank UK if it were not for you all this kind of information would be very difficult to obtain. Here in the US the kind of article i just read would never have made it past the chopping block so again thank you. Now, to the people of the world please please please A) Set up new Nuremberg trials B) Don't hate all of American's we have been trying to stop this president since 2001, and C) Remember that the US is now the Middle East in relation to Fundamentalist Christianity and wacko Fundy Christians are just as dangerous as wacko Fundy Muslims. We have people here, Big Powerful Christian leaders who are telling their congregations, much like the Ayatollahs, that the end is near and we have to be willing to fight and die against the Muslim Hordes. This cannot be allowed to happen. please help the few rational americans left fight against these crazy Fundamentalist religious nuts. And again THANK YOU

William Tatum, Flagstaff, USA, AZ

this situation does not come as a surprise to me. A government that holds suspected terrorists in a legal nomans land in Cuba without charge for several years is obviously going to torture people because no one stands up to them. I just hope the relevant authority takes some action this time but I won't hold my breath.

zeezi, leeds, uk

Didn't your mother ever teach you that just because someone else does it, it doesn't make it right?

Al Fleagle, Hot Springs, Arkansas

To every American that voted for Bush, and everybody that works direct or indirectly for that Administration: shame on you! How could you people be so stupid and blind to let a man like this take power? It reminds me of the German population that supported Hitler in WW2. It's not one man, or one administration that is responsible for the current situation in the USA, it's every single individual, that is able to speak/write/protest, that is responsible. You guys can rise up, including the CIA/police/hospital personnel, and get rid of that dictator in your country. But no, whenever there's a demonstration against the Bush administration in the USA, only a handful of people shows up. Sure, it might be 100s of thousands of people but that's not much compared to the hundreds of millions living there. I'm in Europe, I can't do anything from here but read about it and write my opinions on blogs, but the people that live in the USA have the obligation to the rest of the world to do something.

Thijs, Amsterdam,

To Ian Watson from Dorset--I wish I could distance myself from what my government has done. Torture never has a purpose because the end result is unreliable information. But what can be expected from a president who likes the TV series "24" and a vice-president who is paranoid?

priscilla kawakami, SALT LAKE CITY, Utah, USA

gb from Austin:

How long did al qaeda wait in between the first and second world trade center attacks?

Exactly.

...and how long has it been since that last one?

They are patient.

Ben, San Francisco,

Congressional leaders and Americans in general all posture about torture and how "we're better than that" along with their posturing about "ending the war" and most other things Bush-connected. But the truth is, they supported everything when they thought they were going to "win" a bigger empire. Now that the worm has turned the proverbial rats are jumping ship (the mAsses) while the Congress want to win the war as much as Bush but give lip-service to ending it... just for P.R. sake. They're all cut from the same cloth. United you stand, United you fall.

Joseph Bleau, Bordeaux, France

I am a Bush-hating left winger. We should fight terrorism in the ways that are proven most effective. Terrorism has been with us for a long time - Guy Fawkes comes to mind - and history provides plenty of information about what works and what doesn't in preventing it. Ideas that work include a strategy of cooperation and information sharing among all the relevant law enforcement bodies; "human intelligence" acquired through infiltration of terrorist groups; and - yes - charitable and respectful relations with other countries, which make it harder for terrorists to recruit. Bush's isolationist, "tough guy" policies have made each of these tactics more difficult and less effective. Torture does the same - it gives people a reason to hate us and makes it easier for terrorists to convince people to help them. Leaving aside the non-trivial moral issues, torturing prisoners might still be worth it if it yielded useful info. But it doesn't. CIA field officers say so: http://tinyurl.com/yphxms

Margaret, Brooklyn, NY, US

So 'torture' is the flavor-of-the-month when it comes to hot-button words. When dealing with Al-Qaeda, I'm perfectly willing to accept a few cold leads and misinformation to achieve the larger goal of protecting our citizens.
The US has not been attacked since 9/11. How's that for bungling, Andrew? Or do you believe as strongly in blind luck as you do terrorists' human rights?
I have no sympathy for the terrorists whatsoever. I'm supposed to care whether they're waterboarded when they'd probably behead you or me on a whim?
I don't think so!

gb, Austin, USA

I sincerely believe that no member of the Bush Adminstration will ever be punished in any way. Ever.

Nobody will ever be to produce any proof of anything. (It was better of them to destroy the proof of torture and deal with the ramifications of that)

The thing they won't be able to stop is being labeled the worst president ever. Unfortunately, many people have suffered and died through out this presidency and certain groups will continue to suffer after he is gone. Who is going to stop him? The big news in the United States this week is Brittany Spears' sister.

Why do Bush supporters need lessons in spelling and grammar?

The big trick the republican pulled is getting people who they harm to vote for them.

George Sweetapple, Indiana, PA,

Americans have a stark choice, to be likened to the Nazi's or to be remembered for better things (for what escapes me but I digress).

America is complicit in committing war crimes, from detonating nuclear weapons in GWI (google it, the SAS spotted the mushroom cloud and were told to shut up), using dirty radioactive weapons such as DU weapons, supporting apartheid regimes like Israel, supporting dictatorships like Saudi Arabia, aiding Israel in committing crimes against humanity by supplying weapons and intelligence that was used against civilians, supporting Israel in using collective punishments against the Gaza strip.

I think Britain and every other civilised nation should distance itself from the US until it stops doing the things it does, close the bases, stop the one way intelligence flow, scrap the fast track extraditions and more importantly, the CIA from wandering our streets committing serious crimes with impunity e.g. interfering at Lockerbie.

Ian Watson, Gillingham, Dorset

After the dust settles there will be more shocking stories to know.
This american adminstration has caused more damage to the united states than al qaeda did or couldve ever dreamt of inflicting on them. These methods are very much similair to methods used by dictatorships in third world countries, The US administration cannot point fingers or castigate anyone with human rights violation when they know they are partners in these violations, even worse when you consider that the US should be more civilised than third world countries, should be i say as it is clear it is not, was it ever civil is another question.

S Ahmed, Cairo,

The majority of the Americans baked the war in Iraq, which is illegal and criminal war. G W Bush is not the only responsible, the Americans who voted and supported him are also involved indirectly in theses crimes. Many Americans pretend freedom and liberty. But in reality, they are brain washed, and they beleive in all what their media and goverment say.
And these are symptoms of stupidity and naivity rather than freedom and liberty.

Soufiene, Sheffield, UK

I appreciate this article. I have been sickened by the discussions people in the U.S. are having about torture. The news media has picked up on the Bush administration talking points and now calls torture "aggressive interrogation methods." I never believed that we would be having a debate about weather or not we should torture. For the first time in my life I am truly ashamed to be an American. That will be George Bush's legacy. I can only pray that someday he, and others in his adminstration, are put on trial for these crimes.

pam, austin, texas, U.S.

While im against torture wherever it occurs I just say there are other cases of torture

BLOODY HARVEST
Revised Report into Allegations of Organ Harvesting of
Falun Gong Practitioners in China

http://investigation.go.saveinter.net/

While i condemm any torture

Il also point out from a report here

Russian security officials are regularly subjecting detainees to beatings, rape and torture, a report by Amnesty International says

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6169242.stm

Questions i ask whats the difference between torture mentioned in that report and torture on these tapes?

Warrior, Ire, Munster

If the US administration does not consider such torture illegal they can have no objection in it being used by the courts to extract the truth from its own personnel including everyone up to and including the president.

derek aitken, bo'ness, uk

All this was on offer for the American voters before they put Bush and the oilmen back into power.

If they haven't the sense to see reason, they must accept that America is finished as a source of global direction, finished as a collaborator in global economic solutions, finished as a friend of anyone else.

Not just because of Bush, but because most of the country backed him, and voted him back in, and even now fails to see what all the big fuss is about.

The picture of a protester summed it up best: dressed in stars and stripes, he holds a placard saying, "Support America, morans."

iain carstairs, bedford, uk

At last there is the possibility of Justice saving us from a path of certain disaster.

Jerry Lott, Ocean, New Jersey

At one time I would have had hope that Congress and the Senate would uphold their their duties by refusing to allow Bush and co. to get away with their crimes. However, I have little confidence that they will do what needs to be done - impeach and imprison them.

For anyone who thinks that's it's ok to torture, shame on you. Shame on you! We, as a society, must make a decision whether we want to stoop to the levels of some rouge governments or rise above and be a role model for others. I thought that decison was made long ago when we signed the Geneva Convention, but obviously some in this adminstration (and the public) feel otherwise. It ties into the same rationality of why it's not ok for a police officer to beat up a rapist, murderer, etc. Because they represent our justice system and MUST be above the mentality of a crimminal.

Our nation has sunk to that of a common thud.

Gwen, Douglassville, PA, USA

One would have thought an American President, would have had some type of legal council, that would have been familure with the U.S. Supreme Court Justice Jackson, who took a leave from the bench, to fly to the German Palace of Justice in Nuremburg, as lead prosecutor for the gang of Herman Goering?

Of course that Justice never went to college, never went to law school, and never had his brains sucked out.

One would have thought an American President, would have known King George III, and his Excellency George Washington who were both experianced in the orffshore colonial experiance?

"When in the course of Human events...We hold these truths to be self evident...to prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world...He has obstructed the Administration of Justice...For transportating beyond seas to be tried for prentended offenses...

"Our friend George is rather remarkable for doing exactly what he ought to do."
Thomas Jefferson to David Ramsay, Paris, August 4, 1787

The Grand Old Party, Phildelphia, 13 United Colonies.

Secret prisons, warrantless wiretaps, water-boarding, the suspension of habeas corpus, detainee interrogation tapes conveniently destroyed by the CIA interrogators, a President that calls the Constitution a "God Damn piece of paper," We in the United States are all Fascists now and it feels horrible!

Tony, Los Angeles, CA

When P Foster mentions the Irish Conflict is he suggesting that Britain fetes Osama Bin Laden in the same way that the US feted Gerry Adams.

imj, Abu Dhabi, UAE

I would like to say that Mr. Bush, Mr. Cheney, His Staff, the CIA, NSA, Homeland Security, and many other government offices; which includes the House: men/women, The Senate: men/women and Judicial that had knowledge of most of the covered-ups that have happened and of ones yet to occur. and will allow them to occur in the future . Torture is only one. My belief is that WE NEED TO REPLACE (I didn't say overthrow; use your electoral votes to do so!) OUR ENTIRE GOVERNMENT PERSONNEL (WHO ARE ALL CORRUPT IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER) WITH NEW BRIGHT, INTELLIGENT PERSONS THAT ARE NOT FOR THE ELITE (RICH) PERSONS. These people will take care of AMERICANS by making health care, oil, food, taxes, etc. affordable for all.

Don, Wiconisco, pa

"Why is it that our special forces personnel can be waterboarded during training but terrorist can't?"

There is a bit of difference between having your own organization "torture" you when you can always tell them, "OK, OK, I've had enough!", and being actually tortured indefinitely by your mortal enemies. Let's see if our special forces personnel are up to handing themselves over to Al-Qaeda for this treatment.

Torture is usually justified to the ignorant by neocons via the "ticking time bomb" scenario, something right out of Hollywood. It is never used that way, but always for much more mundane reasons, or no reason at all. The information gotten that way is generally worthless or out of date.

If torture is ever used against regular US citizens, some day in the future, it will be this "camel's nose in the tent", of torture against only supposed terrorists, which will have enabled it. And if we buy the arguments of torture proponents, we will deserve what we get.

Paul Y, Boise, Idaho

And as for the rest of you with no sense of actual history::

We are responsible for al-Qaeda. In our previous war against the "Evil Empire", we couldn't stand the thought of the USSR taking a foothold in the Middle East. So we armed and trained thousands of Muslims from around the world, resurrecting a centuries-dead concept of jihad as holy warfare (it had come to stand for personal spiritual struggle) as a way of indoctrinating them and galvanizing them into war with the USSR. We pumped millions worth of guns and drugs into Afghanistan and Pakistan, and upheld the rule of the Taliban, ushering in a reign of terror for Afghanis. Reagan literally likened the Mujahideen to our "founding fathers".

Osama was our ally until we brought foreign troops to Mecca nd Medina and violated their holy sites, even though Osama begged them to leave after the war. We refused. He felt betrayed, and his particular code of honor dictacted action, and he used the tools and ideology we gave him so freely.

aidan, Austin, TX USA

so what if they tortured these maniacs to get to some truth? I say do whatever is needed to keep the American people free from terrorist attacks. These are not ordinary soldiers we are fighting, these are fanatics who don’t have a second thought about killing little children or beheading someone just because they want a taste of democracy. This IS NOT your normal war and these are NOT normal people. Wake up and see the reality. War IS hell and we must use whatever means at our disposal to fight and survive. The bleeding heart liberals would be singing a different tune if we had another 9-11.

James, Melbourne, United States of America, Floida

Yes, more evidence that Bush and Cheney are bad for the USA. What is hard to reconcile is why congress didn't opt for impeachment. Why isn't every Congressman aghast at the errors of the executive branch? Why bother to say "its a waste of time to impeach" when in fact all the tasks done in lieu of impeaching aren't worth doing if the core principles of this country are undermining the very future of this nation.

Are we afraid as a country to confront what we have created in Bush and Cheney? After all, 58 million americans voted for them long after Iraq was needlessly invaded. Are they still in denial? If not, where are they now? If those voters are in denial, what will take them to realize the country isn't what it stands for anymore and that any effort to ban flag burning pales in comparison to the tarnishing that Bush and Cheney have given old glory in the last 7 years?

I just don't understand. Where are the 58 million outraged voters who were hoodwinked?

Jim Barrett, Stamford, USA/CT

Saddam did have WMD's. We all know that because it's common knowledge that the US sold him the chemicals and the technology and funneled the goods to Iraq under cover of the US Department of Agriculture as agricultural aid.

These were all used up or were useless well before the invasion and this was also common knowledge within the Bush administration. Yet Bush and Rice both still conjured up images of "mushroom clouds" over the US for the American public if Irag were not invaded. They also fabricated a false link between Saddam and al-Qaeda.

Iraq has literally been destroyed for nothing, and at least 600,000 Iraqi's have been killed or injured for nothing. The whole Middle East has always been a powder keg and the fuse has been lit by the Bush administration. They are all war criminals. There should be a mass impeachment and trials for all.

I'm not a very religious person but Bush and company are surely headed to Hell. I just hope they don't take the rest of us with them.

Peter, Vancouver, Canada

My late mother was a code taker for this very newspaper, its strange how the Americans ignored terrorists, even covertly supported them or more overtly even as it has to be remembered that Al Qaeda was a CIA organisation.

But come along Bush and suddenly the world has to wake up, yet when we were being hit by the IRA we endured, we carried on as best we could, yet this goes far far back when Joseph Kennedy was handing over secrets to Von Ribbentropp because he was an IRA supporter yet no terrorist ever forced the British to carry ID cards, to submit to fascist ideals, to beomce worse than the enemy, that is until Bush came in and Blair touched his toes for him.

I consider Blair to be an utter traitor to this land and no amount of holy mass will absolve him of the crimes he committed.

Ian Watson, Gillingham, Dorset

Larry, Austin,

He did have weapons. Your country sold them to him. you can even look up a song that sings about it.

I have a pic of Rummy shaking Saddams hand saying "sure, kill brown people and we don't mind."

Neil, Moncton, NB, CANADA

Do you remember a city called Dresden?

Men, women, children firebombed mercilessly. Oh yes they were warned.

Leave your home or you will be incinerated.

And incinerated they were.

War crime?

Some day some Islamic fanatic will strike again. Maybe London, maybe Paris, maybe New York. Alot of peopple will die. And everyone will ask the governement why didn't you stop them? Didn't you do everything you could to prevent this from happening?

After the next big one I don't think there will be so much angst against waterboarding. Just like not many in the West had must angst about firebombing an entire city...men, women, and children

Matt, Cincinnati, Ohio/USA

The sad fact is that the US has - by international reputation as well as in fact - descended to the moral level of a "Banana Republic", a rogue regime. Papa Doc tortured in the Dominican Republic, we torture in Guantanamo and elsewhere through agents. We are a nation of pin-striped and rich torturers.
We all know about reputation - once lost, forever lost.

TimothyL, New York, USA

This isn't about 'Bush hating', what a dim and short sided view point.

This is about upholding our established morals, principals and laws, otherwise we become the same as what we are supposedly fighting against. Hard concept to grasp for a lot of people, seemingly.

However, we have already become much worse, terrorrising our own people on a grand scale, as 9/11 was an inside job and these so called 'terrorists' are mostly non-existent scapegoats used to justify whatever we want to do.

E W, NYC/London, UK

Hey, Hotspur, Andrew Sullivan is an American. It helps if you know what you're talking about before spouting off.

And, wow, Larry in Phoenix, did you attend the same schools your beloved Bush attended?

Teri, San Francisco,

If the tortured was willing to torture unjustly, and they certainly are in this case, then it is justified. Ie, fair.

Only sentiment has banned torture. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with it.

The only outstanding issue is how to rig up a system that reliably tortures the right people. But it isn't hard to imagine : the person would have to have confessed and the confession corroborated by the holding authority, and then passed by the courts for permission. And all of it must be done in public.

Thomas de Torqameda, London, UK

Democracy does not exist in the world!!! GWBush is the prime example. He is a war criminal for inciting a war that the majority of the population did not want. If we were a truly demcratic society he would already be on trial, the people have long voiced their concerns. But he's still the president and not due to popular support - but monetary! If Bush and his entire cabinet from day one of presidency, do not stand trial for the murder and accomplices to murder of US personnel and Iraqi civilians, don't ever count on decent representation from your governments!

Paul T., aloha, oregon/usa

The big picture here seems pretty clear. Americans like to talk big about their commitment to the rule of law, and to criticise other countries for the actions they take when under a threat, but as soon as they come under terrorist attack themselves, they hasten to justify terrorism.

I wonder, how many American posters here are willing to say that they would applaud a present-day German or Japanese Government torturing prisoners?

That's really the point. Is it OK for every Government to torture prisoners? Russia, for example, or Kazakstan? Or is torture something that is only justified when Americans are doing the torturing?

jon livesey, Sunnyvale, CA/USA

When Cinton was in office there was an outcry for special prosecuters to investigate his unethical practices and then we impeached him for having consensual sex with an adult. Yet here we have an administration violating civil rights, authorizing torture, obstructing justice and sending thousands of soldiers to their deaths for a war the administration lied about. America we need to WAKE UP. The terrorists are in our own house. The White House. We should be DEMANDING Congress and the Senate to take action. Impeach Bush and Cheney.

Michael Porter, Trinidad,

America has been kidnapping people. Holding them for years without charge or trial. Torturing detainees. Its officers then filming the sadistic practice. Then destroying evidence hoping to cover up their crimes. After all this Washington still has the cheek to point fingers at others on human rights.

Peter, Manchester, UK

There's no doubt that Bush is a war criminal. The truth is, however, these people are laughing at us for thinking that waterboarding is torture. Big deal, we photographed naked pictures of them. We allowed a couple of scary German Shepards to bark at them. These terrorists are demons. If given the chance, they would kill you, your baby, your mother, your grandfather, and proudly broadcast it over the Internet. Would you rather that happen, or would you be willing for these idiots to undergo a bit of discomfort and pain to prevent it?

Jeff, Sacramento / CA, USA

The debate is no longer whether the US tortures. It does. Waterboarding is torture. End of story.

The debate is about whether torture is ever justifiable in a civilised society. It is not, and no amount of deriding as bleeding heart liberals those principled enough to oppose torture, will change that. We should all hang our heads in shame that we have allowed, and even condoned, the adoption of torture by the United States, that once great beacon of freedom for the world.

Paul, Hampshire, UK

Brits should remember their recent past when they begin to criticize others' response to terrorism. When Britain was battling the I.R.A. did not they also resort to special courts,detention without trial, "soft "torture, assasination, kidnapping, and a host of human rights violations? I despise George Bush and all his works, yet am astonished to read the smarmy self-satisfied comments of british journalists. Please people, we could all use a little self reflection.

P. Foster Sullivan, Seattle, Washington U.S.

In response to imj, Abu Dhabi, UAE, there were quite a few shenanigans too numerous to mention here that took place in order to prevent democrat voter turn out. Scientific research came out of this noted that negativity was designed to cause intense voter apathy. Had this massive psychological warfare campaign not been in place, the Clown Prince George might not have been deposited onto the American throne.

Anybody who actually believes the world trade center collapsed as a result of being struck by aircraft needs to reanalyze everything. The buildings collapsed far to symmetrically to be caused by a single asymmetrical force and any aircraft used in this action were strictly diversionary. Like Pearl Harbor, someone knew it was going to happen and planned accordingly. It wouldn't surprise me if those Mossad agents triggered the charges remotely from their vantage point across the river. You do remember those Mossad agents found dancing and laughing while the towers collapsed?

Dave Kisor, Riverside, CA, US

We have known for years he is a war criminal. But thanks for further confirmation..

Phil, Hong Kong,

For my Canadian friend -- do you think Saddam had no weapons of mass destruction? Sorry, friend, but he used them many times during the Iran-Iraq war. If he didn't have them, then explain to all of us how he used them. The Arab presses were filled with photos showing the use of these weapons. I know. I lived there during this time.

The spinless, floundering UN game him 17 months to move them and then still didn't have the courage to do anything.

This is synonymous with Chamberlain when Germany was beginning to throw its power around. Appeasement doesn't work.

Incidentally, the US doesn't have to ask the UN permission to go to war. We are a soverign nation.

Larry, Austin, TX/USA

The world knows that America is a nation that tortures, in the same league as Soviet Russia, Maoist China, numerous Muslim regimes, etc., etc. The idea of a kind and gentle and good America is dead forever. Americans can continue to lie to themselves about themselves but the world is not fooled. America is not special anymore. It is rotten and dirty to the core like many other nations and societies.

Chris, Tucson,

America is sick! Is there a doctor in the house? Paging Dr. Ron Paul ..............

harold, minneapolis, mn

Blaming Bush for what the CIA does is pure Bull-ony !!! Did you ever hear of Valerie Plame ??
The CIA has done everything possible to hurt Bush. Would someone in the CIA "leak" to the New York Times??? In a heart beat, they would !!

LaNeil , Elizabethtown, USA / KY

R. in Cleveland wrote: "Unconventional attacks on the USA will beget unconventional responses, but ones that are measured and hardly constitute torture in the way most folks think of it. And the Geneva Convention? It doesn't take much to understand it doesnt apply to the likes of the folks we are to deal with. Its that simple.

"You folks in the Uk and Europe are clueless"

Well I am in the UK and Europe. If I see some people do something bad against innocent by-standers in the US and then hear that the US administration is torturing various people from Muslim countries am I to think "Oh, those Muslims had it coming to them" or "This is the end of the Geneva Convention, justice and civilisation"?

A bit simplistic isn't it to lump all the folks in the UK and Europe together as "clueless". It show a certain lack of understanding of the way the world works.

Mike, Harlow, Uk

Hi, yank here... can I just say, "Sorry"? Sorry about our country unleashing a madman upon the world, although he is but one of many insidious, dangerous people in positions of power throughout the world, and more of a figurehead of the Neocon Supervillains as opposed to a legitimate leader. He's a moron. But, to stay on point here, I must say that of all the many, many scandals from which the Decider-Guy has escaped unscathed (and thus further emboldened), this situation presents an array of potentially devastaing revelations from which there seems- almost- no conceivable defense, no sweeping under the rug by Republican loyalists- and the disgustingly complicit and enabling Democratic "leadership"- no possible spinning to death via Big Media, and therefore an actual outcry from We the People, leading, ultimately, to the removal of both the President and the Vice-President of The United States of America.

And Lo, the World doth sing and rejoice. Pray for us all.

Aloha

Colin James, Olympia, Washington, USA

It amazes me how long the Bush administration has managed to convince some people that all this torturing and denial of basic legal rights is necessary at a time of war.. you do realise that they're setting up the 'war on terror' to be a permanent fixture, and that you're NEVER going to get back the rights they've taken away in the name of national security?

These aren't temporary measures, the military-industrial complex is in full swing in America.

Owen, London, UK

It is shocking that there are people on this forum who defend the use of torture. Most of them seem to live in the USA- this Bush administration driven them to a Middle Ages mentality where they live in constant fear and any provocation justifies an attack

Since they believe it is right for the US to torture terrorist suspects do any of them believe that it would be OK for the terrorists to kidnap them off the streets and torture them ?

Bondy, London,

I don't know about any of you guys,but I seen a lot in 1967/68 in Viet Nam and what Napalm did to civilians,inocent civialns-I was there,served two terms in my eight years in the Army,and in my opinion, for nothing.These wars are senseless,I'm not a political person,just an ex soldier that has seen a lot of killing.From every thing I've read,about 70% of Americans think Irag wasn't the country to attack,Afghanistan is where the evil was and Saudi Arabia,and Pakastin.I was a paratrooper,we could have retaliated very hard with special forces,and air attack,instead of occupation and ground troops.It's a mess to get out,I've seen it.The same attack as 911 on us,could have been reversed on them,but on a continued basis without sending in and occupying the country.This enemy doesn't wear uniforms,as in Viet Nam,you don't know from day to day,who is friend or fol.Two of my home town friends I went to school with were killed there,one tortured,I'm against it.Bob,K.W,Fl

BOB, KEY WEST,FL, USA-FL

If Al Queda didnt like the cooking, maybe they should never have entered the kitchen.

michael clarke, kensington, uk

It should be remembered that the Americans voted for him to be their president, with a little bit of help from his brother in Florida. He represents you all and symbolises you to the rest of the world.

imj, Abu Dhabi, UAE

Justice (fairness) is to receive the equivalent to what one has given. If a man is willing to unjustly torture and kill then he justifies being treated the same way.

The US and UK may be faced with the position of a jihadist nuke in a city while having caught a jihadist who knows where it is. Faced with someone willing to inflict enormous death and suffering (for those that survive) the authorities would be justified in inflicting suffering upon that person in order to try to stop the bomb