Rod Liddle
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DO YOU remember that game from 1972 when Leeds United, imperious and unassailable, trounced Southampton 7-0 at Elland Road? At one point the Leeds side engaged in a magnificently contemptuous game of keep-ball, the Southampton players scurrying hither and thither wishing that the ground might swallow them up. I reckon if Manchester United did a similar thing today we would be transfixed with awe and respect. Back then, we were instead transfixed with utter hatred. Go on, Bobby Stokes, we will have muttered to ourselves, kick that cultured thug Giles six feet up in the air. Break a leg or two. Especially Billy Bremner.
Leeds were loathed then for their wily pragmatism, their apparent invincibility (an invincibility that, paradoxically, brought them only a couple of league championships and nothing in the way of success in Europe). The loathing continues; their current misery is a source of jubilation throughout the land. Last weekend, on one of the Leeds supporters’ websites, fans of virtually every club across the four divisions posted messages dripping with bile and spite, revelling in the extreme likelihood of Leeds being relegated, for the first time in their history, to what all normal people call Division Three.
I cannot think of another team that could provoke such unanimous dislike – and especially not one from the lower reaches of the second division, a side beset in recent years by the most terrible misfortunes that could afflict a football club, ie Peter Ridsdale and David O’Leary.
As ever, the final satisfaction of seeing Leeds finally consigned to the third division was stolen from us at the last moment, in a very Leedsish manner. To have escaped relegation this weekend Leeds would have needed not only to win at the excellent Derby County but make good a nine-goal deficit on their closest rivals, Hull City. Let’s be clear: they were effectively relegated by last week’s home draw with Ipswich Town.
So to see them suddenly claim sanctuary in administration and have a meaningless 10 points deducted this season rather tarnishes the pleasure we might take in their humiliation. We wanted to see them start next season with minus 10 points: go on, Wisey, sort that one out. But it also seems to me against the spirit of the law and quite possibly against the letter of it. The 10-point deduction is intended as a punishment imposed as a result of a football club living way beyond its means. In Leeds United's case, way, way, way beyond its means. And yet in this instance it is not a punishment at all as Leeds were already down.
And so the laws that apply to the little clubs – such as nearby Rotherham United, forced to claw their way back from a 10-point deduction in a lower division (they almost did it, bless them) and, for that matter, Crawley Town – do not apply to the gilded likes of Leeds. So there we are, another reason to hate them and to further despise the football authorities, who must recognise this as a blatant piece of chicanery but are, as ever, disinclined to do anything about it.
The suspicion persists that there is one law for the big clubs – the Premiership sides, the supposedly sleeping giants from the lower divisions – and one law for the rest. Take, as an example, that footballing academy (by which I mean the likes of Marlon Harewood and Christian Dailly), West Ham; a £5.5m fine that will be wiped out at least sixfold by the money they will get for not being relegated. Now, I have little time for Dave Whelan and his clodhopping Wigan side – an artificially created Premiership club if ever there was one – and still less for al-Fayed’s Fulham. But it is inconceivable that a smaller club would have been treated with the leniency afforded to West Ham: indeed, they weren’t. AFC Wimbledon got told they were being clobbered with an 18-point deduction for fielding an ineligible player, before having this ludicrously severe penalty reduced to three points when the West Ham business hove into view. But still, three points – three points that, if applied equitably, could send West Ham down to the Championship.
The FA, in reaching its conclusion over the Carlos Tevez affair, took note of the fact that the corrupt dealings with the player were not the fault of the loyal West Ham supporters, who shouted really loudly during matches and were decent and blameless human beings. Well, sure, but what of the AFC Wimbledon supporters or, for that matter, the fans of Rotherham? Were they to blame for, respectively, their club’s incompetence in fielding an ineligible player or for sinking into administration? Of course not; they were as loyal and blameless as the West Ham fans. If you wanted prima facie evidence of one rule for the rich, one rule for the poor, you have it in the cases of Leeds United and West Ham.
Rod Liddle is the most controversial commentator on sport in the British media. Previously the editor of BBC Radio 4’s Today programme and now a columnist with The Spectator, he brings an often outrageous and always provocative fan's view to The Sunday Times every week
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It's funny how people read this article in they way they want to. Every fan thinks it's all about their team when all Ron Liddle is saying is the ridiculousness of some rules and the prejudice that exists about LUFC. He didn't say he agrees with all points about Leeds United only that these sentiments exist in the footballing world, whether for a good reason or not.
As for Fulham and Wigan and the fans whinging about the criticism, they are both in the premier league because somene threw a lot of money in but at least Whelan is a Wiganer through and through whereas Al-Fayed is not exactly a born and bred londoner is it? I bet the same fans are "disgusted" by Abramovich thrown money in Chelsea to make them champions of...well everything, when their chairmen are doing the same: Trying to make the best team possible in whatever way they can!
Fans should get over themselves and realise that not everything is about them but football in general!
Alex K, Manchester, UK
The point that's being missed here, but was considered by the Premier League in making their decision, was that the people responsible for any wrong doing at West Ham (if any) were no longer associated with the club.
In the case of other clubs receiving fines and points away, the management receiving the punishment were the people responsible for the "crime".
If there was any question as to the legality of hiring the Argentinians, or paperwork not being visible, the league should have scuppered the transaction, stopping it from going ahead. To punish the new management and the long suffering fans for mistakes made by the Premier League is harsh.
Lessons to be learned for team management and the FA for the future.
Simon Cotton, West Mersea, Essex
the most important issue here is the fairness of the rules. it is clear they have been properly applied to leeds, even if the application only serves to demonstrate the stupidity of the rules.
in what sense does it help a club in adminisration to deduct 10 points? talk about kicking a man when he's down... it is nonsensical.
if the idea is that clubs should be discouraged from overreaching themselves financially, this should be done in a way which actually avoids the occurence of such an instance. salaries could be limited to a set percentage of turnover. and transfer fees should be directly related to salaries. clubs could be prevented from taking on any debt.
if businessmen want to fund the development of stadiums or other facilities, let them do it with their own money or borrow in their own companies. the real disgrace is that, a club such as manchester united, which had no debt and was generating significant revenues, could be taken over and burdened with debt.
jem, london, uk
I thoroughly agree with the "One rule for "The Elitist Group" and One for the Rest..it is very unfair and unbalanced.
This season we seem to have been faced with an alarming number of "ineligible players" and clubs going into "administration" cases, so the people who need to hold their hands up and say that there IS something wrong with their sytsems are the Football League and The FA..they need to sit down and rewrite their rule books, so that ALL RULES apply to ALL teams, and that these rules are CLEAR and have no loopholes attached...
A terrific end of sesaon has been tarnished by the likes of West Ham, Leeds United,Accrington Stanley and Boston United...sadly we will al probably remember the end of seson 2006-07 for all the wrong reasons.
The FA and Football League need to clean up their act and , finally, let the Beautiful Game be played on a "level playing pitch" for ALL clubs in ALL divisions, regardless of wealth, support and tradition.
NICK OLDHAM, MACCLESFIELD, UK
I do not quite understand the rant against Leeds and to be honest, it has coloured my view of the article and I am a Villa fan. It is clear is that the application of the rules does favour the big clubs, but Leeds has not benefited here at all and much of the article comes across as simply a diatribe against Leeds.
The best example ought to be Swindon who were effectively demoted two divisions in 1990 as they already achieved promotion, whereas Tottenham simply received a fine for similar offences - illegal payments.
Leeds going into administration is not quite how some of the Leeds fans present it here as Ken Bates put the club in administration and bought it back the next day - the timing was to avoid the winding up order, but the criticism is nonethesless still wrong. Leeds has not gained an unfair advantage over other clubs because the club had already been relegated on the pitch and you would have to say, has been relegated twice due to its past profligacy.
Christian Wall, St Neots,
Personally I have a great deal of time for Leeds United.
Well to be precise, 180 minutes which is the length of time my club, Hartlepool United will spend playing them next season.
Unless of course we get drawn together in the First or Second Round of the FA Cup. Then I'll have even more time for them.
Simple answer to a simple question. Everyone despises Leeds because their fans revel in the fact that they are despicable. It's self generating, show some humility like the fans of Nottingham Forest and relations with other clubs fanbases will improve markedly. You WERE a big club, now you aren't however temporary that might be.
Have a lovely day out at Cheltenham Town.
Pu Li, Guangxi, China
Where does this totally irrational hate for Leeds come from? The vast majority of Leeds fans are normal decent people who have a passionate love for Leeds. We don't go around hating every other club in the league although our rivalry with Man United is well known. All the hate shown by what I can only assume is a small minority of brainless morons is so pitiful I'd have to laugh at them if it were not damaging to Football. Why is it damaging you might ask? Because football should be played in good spirit and respect for the other team. Hate generates more hate and in the end that can only lead to trouble as it has done in the past. While I'll never like Man United I do respect their true fans (not those fair weather fans that seem to make up half their fan base). So unless you have a rational reason (maybe a Leeds fan did steal your girlfriend!) for hating Leeds please stop going on and on about your hate for us. By the way Leeds has been successful in Europe. Check your facts!
Clive Sanderson, Harrogate, North Yorkshire
Fulham deserve their place in the Premiership. They have held this status for 6 years now while supposedly big clubs like Birmingham and Sunderland yo yo between the divisions. We all know that the football powers that be find our presence offensive hence they try and give West Ham an easy ride by giving them a soft punishment for fielding an ineligible player. The Fulham fans are passionate about their club. We don't spit in anyones face or kick them in the groin to prove it. If our presence offends Rod Liddle and others like him then great. Long may we continue to do so.
Rod Liddle is clearly annoyed by something. We are the oldest club in London, and have had some of the finest players EVER play for us. We have had to compete with QPR and Chelsea for fans, and with us being in Div3 only 10 years ago, it proves that we are PROPER fans. We don't support our club because of the success. We support it because we love it and have tremendous passion for our club
Rishi Bhari, Fulham/London, UK
Rod Liddle seems to be very anti-Leeds United, having written an article that may well annoy the living daylights out of Leeds fans.
Having been pelted with various objects by the "minority" of Leeds fans on more than one occasion, even though it was a very big minority, I must say that I don't particularly like Leeds United either.
If they don't like criticism of their "big", "famous" and "friendly" club, then tough.
As far as I'm concerned, the arrogance of several decades of Leeds United chairmen and boards is mirrored by the arrogance of their supporters. Most aren't hooligans to be fair, but most seem to be very blinkered with regards to the many short-comings of their club.
Richard Martin, Sheffield,
its a shame all these people defending leeds and west ham didnt rally round and help bury,who were thrown out of the fa cup earlier this season for a far lessbreach of rules.saddest thing about the bury incident was that a west ham director sat on the panel that expelled.how hypocritical can you get
john, london,
WHU deserve to have a points penalty imposed; they broke FA rules, so what's the issue: it's cut and dried, I agree with the other commentators who call for their demise. Sorry, but 'rules is rules'.
PJ, New Forest, Hampshire
The reason why most fair-minded football lovers of my generation despise Leeds is that they kicked their way out of the second division and Revie was the man responsible for introducing everything we loathed about foreign football ie kicking the ball away when free-kicks were given against them, standing in the way and preventing their opponents from taking a quick free-kick, shirt-tugging, ignoring the convention that the nearest player to the ball retrieved it when it had gone out of play etc etc
B Wildey, Fleurance, France
Everyone should spare a thought for the real losers in all of this. The small suppliers, the St John's Ambulance Brigade volunteers, the matchday programme printers, the tea lady, the club photographer. The real victims are the small businesses that will go to the wall because of this financial mismanagement. Football has a responsibility to these people, so does Ken Bates.
Paul Casella, London, UK
such an easy target, do you not get bored of putting the boot in?
the old Leeds side that everyone still hates today is nearly 40 years old, they were a great team that unfortunately underachieved on a massive scale
the O Leary team was a good team that probably over achieved, then due to greed over reached causing the spiral down to where we see ourselves today
we the fans are hurting, we are just normal people that have had our hearts ripped out, please just let us grieve our clubs demise and find a new target for your hatred
Baggins, Upper Dewsbury
Baggins, Upper Dewsbury,
You complain 'the 10-point deduction is intended as a punishment imposed as a result of a football club living way beyond its means'. Do you not think the fact we have been relegated twice in 3 years, lost our ground, our training ground, a team full of international players and are now in administration, serves as the punishment you seek? Im not saying that as we've had a hard time of it that we should be exempt from that law, but you are advocating the law be changed now, based purely on the fact that you fear otherwise this may not bring about the ultimate and complete demise of a football club that you dislike. Considering you bemoan the lack of consistency from the authorities in dealing with West Ham as opposed to Rotherham or Wimbledon, its a little hypocritical to now complain that Leeds are having the same law applied to them as any other club has in this situation. If your opinions were based on logic instead of bias then you might realise your inconsistency.
Graham Oldfield, Sydney, Australia
We went into administration because we had no assets and the taxman wanted to liquidate us on 25th June. What would you have done, Rod?
Our loyal supporters (who have the highest priced season tickets than anyone in the country, bar Spurs, Arsenal, Chelsea, and West Ham, despite our league) deserve a little bit of luck.
I suppose this article proves we're not famous any more...
Chris Duncan, Kingston-upon-Thames, Surrey
Should their 10 point deduction be confirmed, I look forward to reading Rod Liddle's column next week hurling invective at Boston for avoiding being penalised in the Conference next season. Or will they allowed be escape his censure because they're a "little club"?
Mark Dodd, Dublin, Ireland
re Leeds: this is yet another typical anti Leeds article. The rule does not favour the bigger teams at all, havent Boston done exactly the same thing, even more cynically given that they waited until minutes before the end of their match before going into admin? Funny you forgot to mention this!
Jez, MAnchester, UK
Disgusted by this article, quite obviously Rod Liddle is very anti Leeds United and he should not promote his personal views in this public manner.
D Brown, Castleford, UK
Actually, I'm appalled that such a respected newspaper as The Times should print such misguided, one-sided vitriollic attacks on a football club! incredible! Dear Mr Liddle - for a start you really need to get facts correct don't you think? Leeds won the Fairs Cup (UEFA Cup) twice in 1968 and 1971! As for the administration business - if you look in the FA rule book I'm afraid LUFC have not broken any rules at all - and surely you would admit that ANY other club would have done exactly the same thing! don't think I'll buy the times anymore if they continue to print trash like this!
Richard, Spalding, England
How dare you describe Wigan as "an artificially created Premiereship club if ever there was one"? Is this because they don't try to sell too many shirts in Singapore? or because their rise is due to the support of a local businessman who has invested a considerable slice of his own fortune in local sport, rather than being due to the whim of an east European oil billionaire? Or should it first have become a plc before selling out to an American billionaire? Oh, dear! I forgot! They have a good, young English manager as well - rather than a Scottish bully, an angry Portuguese, a fractious Frenchman or a polite, refined Spaniard. We don't want anything that might do the national team any good! Deduct 10 points from Wigan! That'll teach 'em! Rugby League indeed!
K. Waddington, Manchester,
All this article needed was yet another mention of how recently Leeds were playing in the champions league semi final, I doubt any fan of any other club has had to suffer as much as us Leeds fans in recent years and yet you're still not sattisfied, did a Leeds fan once steal your girlfriend?, i ask because hatred should be saved for something a little more personal than merely seeing a football team enjoying some success, and perhaps you should try to find some satisfaction in your own team and of teams that are playing well rather than the slow painfull demise of Leeds United, enjoy our downfall while it lasts because it won't be too long before Leeds are coming back up. M.O.T.
Mark Wilson, Heckmondwike, England
'Nothing in the way of success in europe' - you don't know what you're talking about sonny
Nigel Williams, peterboro,
Mr Liddle's piece demonstrates precisely why so many Leeds fans dislike and distrust the press so much. It's a wonderful piece of blind prejudice masquerading as objective journalism .....
As far as the 10-point deduction is concerned, there IS only one rule, and it applies to Leeds in the same way that it applied to Rotherham last season. Rotherham finished that season 6 points clear of relegation; so one could argue that THEY "manipulated" the rules by evading administration until the season was over.
And I'm also interested to see that Mr Liddle has "little time for .... clodhoppoing Wigan .... and even less for Fulham".
Why? Is it because these clubs have had the temerity to try to compete in a system which is stacked so heavily against them?
And who DOES he like? Surely not the charming Mr Mourinho's Chelsea? Or the fair-minded Mr Ferguson's mob from over the Pennines .......???
Yorkshrman, Skipton, North Yorkshire
It is a reflection of the state of English football that most fans take more enjoyment from another team's demise than from the performance of their own team, Rod Liddle included.
As there are only a few clubs that can win the biggest prizes, it is normal that fans will switch from expecting any sort of achievement from their own club to watching and hoping for failure for others.
This outlook seems to pervade the fan base's of teams such as Sheffield Utd, Preston North End and Millwall.
Therefore for Leeds not be totally destroyed and causing unmeasurable hurt to a community's people and economy, must be as greater disappointment as losing in a Cup Final to some.
So we shouldn't critisise Rod Liddle or any of Leed's detractors, they are hurting right now.
Maybe we should offer them a great big hug.
Chris, Keighley, West Yorkshire
We as the good and loyal supporters of our club must assume that by printing these one eyed views revelling in our clubs misfortune, that certainly has not been brought about by us, that the The Times no longer wants us as readers.
Andy, Leeds,
Rod,
In your article you describe Leeds United as a rich club ?. I find this strange as they are in administration.
Please explain further as your comments seem rather odd to say the least.
By the way is this the anti Leeds fans forum ??.
D Brown, Castleford, UK
Unfortunately for Liddle the rules regarding points deductions for clubs going into administration are clear - the club is deducted 10pts in the season in which it it goes into administration.
The fact that this deduction, in Leeds' case does not significantly alter their fate, is entirely irrelevant.
If Plymouth Argyle had gone into administration this week, a 10 points deduction would not have seen them relegated - effectively they would have escaped punishment, as they were not able to make the play-offs anyway, and they would start next season on a level playing field with everyone else.
Would Liddle have used up this number of column inches calling for them to start next season on minus 10 points, or does he have one level of vitriolic bile for big clubs and another for smaller clubs?
Steve, Oxon, UK
Why do people like Rod Liddle hate Leeds so much? I agree,in the past, we were a club despised by most people but at least we love our club and will support them through thick and thin. We do not moan and spend many column inches about other clubs. Perhaps Rod should spend more time and energy on supporting his own team rather than than spending time getting rid of all his angst on ours. I appreciate that everyone has an opinion but it does not help our clubs reputation when all we see in the daily news sheets is people like your self constantly bemoaning how bad we are. Quite rightly you pointed out that it is the supporters that suffer. Well Leeds has a huge fan base and we have suffered more than any club in the last few years and do we deserve it ?(apart from the mindless yobs who spoiled everything at the Ipswich game, not proper Leeds fans) There is one thing certain though, we will continue to support our club. Maybe Rod you should look at the other side of the coin for once..
Steve Backhouse, LEEDS, ENGLAND
O'Leary is a good manager according to the results? It is still a results business isn't it?
Bob, Lahore, Pakistan
I have to say that whilst West Ham's conduct in this whole affair has been questionable, ultimately it was the Premier League's decision to sanction these transfers. They could have said "No" to West Ham, but didn't.
Under these circumstances, you can't hold West Ham responsible & these transfers took place under different owners. Therefore, it was correct that they weren't docked points.
In addition, when West Ham were 10 points adrift at the bottom, did any of the other relegation threatened teams mention this issue? Of course not!
This threat of legal action is pure self interest on the part of clubs who aren't goiod enough to resolve their problems on the field of play. Perhaps, if they invested half as much energy trying to win games on the field than they have done threatening legal action, then they wouldn't be in the mess they are in.
Simon Porch, London, UK
10 point deduction for going into administration is a ridiculous idea in the first place.
How is any club going to thrive with that hanging round their neck?
If the powers that be want creditors to get their money back they would be better served by thinking of ways to make English football more of a level playing field. Is anyone looking out for the future of English football? Do we just want 4 big teams with hardly any English players?
Well done West Ham and Leeds United for avoiding yet more spiteful kicks in the teeth.
Jackie, Melbourne, Australia
Bill
If another team had were as guilty, what would WHU have said?
David
David Gillespie, Glasgow,
Much as it conflicts with Rod Liddle's overt antipathy towards Leeds, it was the taxman, who is owed £5m ,that triggered administration by issuing a winding-up order with a deadline of June 25. We Leeds fans are, of course, sorry to disappoint all you good folk out there by choosing to survive rather than suffer the liquidation you would have enjoyed so much.
The paucity of logic in Liddle's argument is clearly exposed in what passes for a conclusion, "If you wanted prima facie evidence of one rule for the rich, one rule for the poor, you have it in the cases of Leeds United and West Ham. " If we were still rich, we wouldn't be in the position were are, now would we?
He is right about one thing though, we are stil a big club and we will return. Just think how bad that will make Liddel et al feel!
PS Rod, Leeds beat Ferencvaros in 1967 and Juventus in 1971 to win the UEFA cup.
PPS Bobby Stokes scored Southampton's FA Cup winner against some team from over the Pennines.
Dave Sowden, Singapore, Singapore
To relegate WHU on the strength of a points deduction at virtually the end of the season would not have been fair and proportionate to the offence, even though it would benefit the other clubs who are under threat of relegation.
The two Argentine players were and in Tevez's case still remain WHU registered players and eligable to play for the team. This dispute, involving as it does third party ownership, is I beleve unprecedented and can't be compared with previous ones decided by lower leagues .
Surely football issues should be sorted out on the pitch. If Wigan and the others believe they are good enough to be in the premier league they should get the points on the pitch, not resort to their lawyers to save them.
Bill Hawes, Bath,