Simon Barnes
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From The Times
April 11, 2008
West must be careful with Chinese whispers
If you stay here much longer you’ll all be slitty-eyed
Prince Philip, to Edinburgh University students in Beijing, 1986
It seems that much of the Western world is united on the subject. The people of Tibet are living in a state of oppression, the Chinese do not respect human rights, and the build-up to the Olympic Games, to be held in Beijing in August, provides a right and proper platform for the expression of reservations about the Chinese.
Which is all very well so far as it goes. But is it the Chinese Government we dislike so much? Or is it the Chinese people? Is the problem one of ethics? Or is it one of race? I have a feeling that the two have got ever-so-slightly mixed. Perhaps we should try to unmuddle ourselves.
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I must say, the torch relay was clearly put together by someone who wished to maximise Western fear and suspicion of the Chinese. Every step, the torch was surrounded by Chinese men in tracksuits. No one knew who they were, what they were doing, what their status was. They were just there, looking menacing and — let’s be frank here — indistinguishable one from the other.
This was a machine, a sinister band of inhuman robots inscrutably keeping the symbol of freedom for themselves, to be used for their own dark ends. Well, that’s what it looked like to many people who saw it. It was a wonderfully inept piece of PR: an image of stony-faced China against the world.
There are deep fears about China lurking in the breast of the West. There are so many of them: 1.3 billion of them and only 60 million of us Brits. It’s impossible to imagine being one of so many: we can only see it as the instant death of the individual.
Then there is the silent military threat: as Tom Lehrer sang as far back as 1965: “China got the bomb, but have no fears / They can’t wipe us out for at least five years.” China has never been an ally, but never been quite an enemy either, unlike the simple dualities of the Cold War. We have never known where to file China in our minds.
There is also the problem of the perceived homogeneity of the Chinese people: they all look the same. Well, they don’t actually. There is a smaller range of features to work with, that’s all. I lived in Hong Kong for four years and was perfectly competent at telling one person from another. (Though I remember a friend of mine describing his new Chinese girlfriend: “She’s beautiful. Small, dark hair, brown eyes. . .”)
The cultural differences can seem vast. A friend of mine, a Mandarin speaker, was attending a meeting between serious high-ups from Hong Kong (then still a British colony) and the People’s Republic. The top Hongkonger broke the ice by saying: “I have always believed that the Chinese are 90 per cent comprehensible and 10 per cent incomprehensible. I propose to concentrate on the 90 per cent I understand.” Smiles and handshakes were exchanged. But what the interpreter had said was: “He says the Chinese are 90 per cent good and 10 per cent bad. He will concentrate on the good part.” But then I remember negotiating a fee with a Chinese editor. This was hard because she was (a) beautiful and (b) disinclined to give any ground whatsoever. “Look,” I said. “You have to move a little. After all, we in the West have this concept of saving face.” A very Hong Kong conversation: the radically different natures and cultures of the British and the Chinese (and many others who just happened to be passing by) created, briefly, a maverick genius of a place.
Even here, there was suspicion and fear amounting to paranoia about what the Chinese over the border were up to. But this was nothing to do with concerns about the Chinese people: because many, if not most, Hong Kong Chinese shared the same fears. It was the Government we didn’t trust, not the people.
And they are separate. This is the point to bear in mind. Don’t you hate it when a foreign person picks a fight with you because you invaded Iraq? In the United States in years past, Americans in different bars demanded to know why I insisted on oppressing the Irish: bad conversations.
A lot of our fear and mistrust of China comes from the fact that it is a one-party state and that political unorthodoxy is discouraged. But it is a reckless misunderstanding to assume that the population are sublimely happy with this, and want nothing more than to serve the state. If that were so, the Chinese would indeed be a sinister lot: but the idea is absurd. I can exclusively reveal that most Chinese people wish to live happy, peaceful and fulfilling lives, to look after their families, to get enough to eat and to get a kick out of life.
Not entirely unlike us, then. So perhaps we should instigate a Cultural Revolution in the head: and look upon China not as a nation, but as place where 1.3 billion individuals happen to live.
I am not sure that this will be easy. At the Olympic Games, there will be many Chinese medal-winners. They will all have the same face and the same name, or seem to. Neither Chinese faces nor names are easily memorable at first encounter to our Western-trained minds.
These medal-winners will do the right things and say the right stuff, and we will blench. We will see them as machines, programmed by the State, doing its bidding, with no feelings or opinions of their own. But if we fail to see beyond that, we betray the libertarian principles of our society. Any time that we see any group of humans as a homogenous mass, rather than a bunch of individuals, we betray our own individuality.
Human rights! It is an emotive phrase, and an important one, but we must use it with care. It has become an instant association: China = bad record on human rights. And so the phrase has tangled itself up with the demons of our unconscious minds: so that it seems to us that the Chinese have a bad record on human rights because they really are not like the humans of the West. They behave inhumanly because they know no better: because they are not, in fact, fully human.
I think it is important, as these troubled and troubling Games approach, that we sort out what we think. If we think that the Chinese Government’s record in Tibet is a bad thing, then fine, and we are, thank God, free to say so.
But if we think — even at some level beyond rational thought — that the problem is that there is something profoundly amiss with the Chinese people themselves, then we have lost the plot. If we deny humanity to other people, we are only truly denying it in ourselves.
Adam, madrid, spain - ...ant I still say after living in the UK for most of my life that you should encourage Scotland, Wales and N.I to be out of British grasp too in the name of freedom and democracy.
Glynn, Kingston,
Here we go again - The Brits are only 60 mil but will goad the other 300 mil or so English speakers into action as noted in the author's use of "humans of the West." I says English speaking as not all in the West hold the same fears of China nor do they have paranoid sense of the Chinese.
Glynn, Kingston,
Colin - Political institutions are inherently artificial and created to legitimize this or that annexation. The UK too has this sort of
artificial glueing of Scotland, Wales and N.I and the current devolved may prove or disprove you as only time will tell if Scotland and Wales go for indepence.
Glynn, Kingston,
This is a truly racist article. If you want to play the race card, then I also think all western people look alike. Big nose, sickly pale skin, ugly freckles, disgustingly hairy body. Not to mention their arrogant self righteousness. Wake up, this is the 21st century, and the chinese will rule it.
Yogi, Tokyo, Japan
To Jack T, Chicago ,
Why don't you leave America if you don't like it? There are many Asians living in America and quite happy. I'm one of them. I have Caucasian, African American, Latino, Arab, and Asian friends. America is truly a great melting pot.
John Tang, Irvine, CA
John Tang, Irvine, USA
There is this idea that all Chinese blithley go along with whatever the government says. This is not true. Chinese citizens do protest and petition their polititians for improvements in their lives. Some have even died. It's just that we rarely hear about it in the West unless it concerns us.
Hui Qi, Jinan, China
I totally agree with Simon's point of distinguishing the government and people.Many Chinese have the same issue as some westerners,when west criticizes our government,we think you are attacking this country and not friendly to our people.As a Chinese myself, I've got to say, we are nice but confused
Sharry, Yangzhou, China
China is changing rapidly everyday and YOU are not!
matthew, nb, china
Boris from London
I'm Chinese, I've read the Wild Swang. Well Jung Chang did made up some stories so it can make a good sell. But generally I think it's a good book. However, I think you missed the point by thinking China is the China 30 years ago. China is changing everyday but you aren't.
Clare, Chengdu,
To the Chinese public, Tibet ruled under the Dalai Lama is the most brutal and inhuman society in the world-- a serfdom in which ordinary people are no more than trash without access to education. property, health care and even basic dignity; also opium war is still very fresh in their mind.
Lin Wei, Beijing , China
Generally, a good article, but you ignore the very simple point that the attitude of the Chinese government (like any) influences the attitude of the Chinese people. A nationalistic government usually leads to a nationalistic people.
MarkChina, Beijing,
The last Chinese Mangchu Emperor (and collaborator with militaristic Japan) was deposed by the CCP, arrested, imprisoned, freed, "reeducated" and then lived on to work as a street sweeper. That's more humane than the French or the Russians have managed in 1789 and 1917.
Gene L, London, UK
I haven't been to China and will never go. I have asthma and I can't be in environments that promote passive death from smoking.
I would imagine that Chinese people are OK overall. But like us Americans the Government spreads to the World what people think;' Merchants of Death and Destruction.
Gary Holbrook, Golden, USA
I also spent 4 years in HK before the handover and in fact had more mainland than HK Chinese friends - they were all lovely people and real individuals, however their views on Tibet or Chinese claims to the South China Sea were always the same making real discussion all but impossible.
Patrick, Prague,
What a silly article! It is based entirely on the assumption that the reader thinks Chinese people all look alike and are therefore inscrutable and terrifying. The problems are not with distinguishing facial features; rather, most Westerners can't read or speak Chinese. That makes for the enigma.
Anja Petrakopoulos, Indianapolis, USA
'Wild Swans' by Jung Chang cannot be compared to any movies. It contains many details of everyday life, including previous 'CCP Great Leaps Forward,' such as melting down all the peoples cooking pots to make useless steel in backyard furnaces. This book is difficult to swallow in China I guess
.
Boris, Belgravia, London
Itbriar, Vancouver.
Have you read 'Wild Swans' by Jung Chang? Give it a try before nonchalant dismissal. It is a true and honest description of life in China both before and during the Cultural Revolution. I bet there are no translations available in China. Much too embarrasing for the CCP.
Boris, Belgravia, London
'Wild Swans' by author Jung Chang
That's exactly the problem. The West thought such work by Chinese must reflect the true picture! Wrong. especially in Western publishing world. Such bestseller or movie like Joy Luck Club is same as Flower Drum Song, geared towards Western appetite. Not real.
ltbriar, Vancouver, Canada
People are the same, whether they are born in Asia, or Europe, or America, etc, It is the governments they are ruled (or in my case, represented) by that make the difference. The Chinese government feels they must keep order so that they won't look "bad" to foreigners. Too late!
Marsha Eisner, Hicksville, USA / NY
If anybody who wants know about China, I mean the real China, they should know the history about it first, and then think it over whether it is true or false from an objective viewpoint.
Emily, GuangDong, China
i must say that before my departure i love the west, for the freedom i've seen in CHINESE medias, but now, four years later, this is no longer the case.
remi, paris, france
Living amongst the Chinese in China (Beijing and elsewhere) I discovered the Chinese people to be warm, friendly, sincere, very well educated and clever. A very different situation to my life in the UK and USA. It is only the Chinese politicians and government who are not to be trusted.
Bob Brown, Carlsbad, USA - California
Chris, Leeds,
I call for Asian Unity and it looks possible. China n Japan are on the right path. President Hu has made a good start. Hope that the 2 nations will seek common grounds & build on it. Confucius said. " A journey of 1000 miles starts with a single step".
Asia Union is nearer now.
Lim , Johor Bahru, Malaysia
"If we deny humanity to other people, we are only truly denying it in ourselves" appears like a virtue but is really false and hypocritical.
How about N. Ireland, who's denying humanity to whom?
How about Iraq, Afganistan, Dafur, Iran and others yet to come just to maintain global supremacy.
singacat, rome, italy
Ron, London
My close chinese friend is a 'beautiful dish' but that does not reduce the qualities of her writing. 'Wild Swans' the biography by Jung Chang is a truthful eye opener for both chinese and westerners.
Boris, Belgravia, London
To Boris
The three part biography 'Wild Swans' by author Jung Chang is a "oreintal dish" for Westerners, not for Chinese. Majority Chinese know millions times more than what westerners read about China. Your curiousity does not represent real China.
Ron, London, UK
The Equestrian Olympics have become a blood sport. 6 Olypmpic level horses in the US have died on courses designed by British coaches and Captians Phillips and Michael Efferington-smith. 14 riders have died. Bejiing should be interesting if the trend of death continues.
barb, california, usa
A united Asia would be nigh on impossible given how much the Asian states hate each other - Chinese people hate the Japanese, the ROK hates Japan, ROK and China have issues concerning history, North Korea hates everyone except China...the list goes on...
Chris, Leeds,
To know a place ,ask local.
But not some awared writer who live thousand miles away.Their conclusion is custom-built for their own reader's interest even to add insult to injury and modifing their own points.
Why are they so worried for China progress?
s leung, scotland, uk
To RHE, NJ, USA:
Will your boycott of the olympics stop the west's fear on China? Will it make the communist party crashed down? No!
If so, why are you still dong such stupid things?
Janice, HK, China
The three part biography 'Wild Swans' by author Jung Chang contains an accurate and honest picture of life in China from the time of the War Lords up to 1978. There are many details of everyday realities for ordinary chinese with objective accounts of several Great Leaps Forward under Chairman Mao.
Boris, London, UK
The West (namely US & EU) virtually controls the world economy since it dominates the WTO, IMF & World Bank.
US being the world's only super power and its Nato allies control the political scene in the world. Has no respect for UN.
Asia must unite if it is to survive and balance the equation.
Lim, Johor Bahru, Malaysia
There have been Great Leaps Forward in China before. Chairman Mao's bright ideas comes to mind, including melting down all of the cooking pots to make steel in the back garden. The current mix of Capitalism and Communism is an odd one. I hope for the sake of the Chinese people this leap works out
Boris, London, UK
Colin, Carmarthen, UK
I am Malaysian with Chinese roots. I can feel that today's Chinese especially the young are now solidly behind the Government. No Chinese wants to break the bowl of rice they are now enjoying. In the past they may not even have a bowl. That makes the difference. Can U C?
Lim, Johor Bahru, Malaysia
John Farley, derby, UK
U r right. I am Chinese Malaysian. The trend now in Malaysia is to be Malaysianised. I believe that both Malay and Indian Malaysians (all of us) would like to see 1st of all a strong ASEAN and a possible Asian Union. A united Asia will be more effective dealing with West
Lim, Johor Bahru, Malaysia
To Naleen, Northern California
You don't care about economy viability just because it is Chinese people's matter. You instigated the Chinese people to give up wealth and fast development for your interest on human rights? Will you give up your enjoyable life for your country's invasion on Iraq?
Janice, HK, China
Well,I have to say that I agree with Simon'point.Do not treat the Tibet issue with racial glasses.
As a high-educated person, to be frank, I do not believe what the China government media said.
But as a individual who has been to Tibet Area. I feel ugly when I saw some western media's reports.
Wei Shao, Fuzhou, CHN
It is beyond my comprehension why there is so much hatred toward the Chinese in the West, while the Chinese in China have so much admiration of and interest in the Western countries. Historically, it was the Chinese who fell victims to the West, not the other way around.
Ming Yu, Burlington , Canada
Lim in Johor Bahru
You have very optimistic pan-Asian sentiments - perhaps that is because with a name like Lim you are Chinese Malaysian. But what about the Malays and the Indian Malaysians? Or indeed other Asian nations? The Japanese had similarly Panasian notions in the 1930s, apparently.
John Farley, derby, UK
To me, I have to say your eye sight is somewhat so short that you can just see what has happened in the past 100 years. Trust me, the rule of Communist Party in China will last until its break up from inside. No sympathy, thanks, if you do think Chinese people have their own right to choose.
Robert Jia, Birmingham, UK
Dalai's claims are really really funny, but it seems that some you still believe in it. He claims supporting the one-China principle for years, but what the hell is the exile government, have you ever heard of an exile government of an autonomous region.
Robert Jia, Birmingham, UK
objective.
I love my city, my life...in China!
panpan, hefei,
Just because the Communist party rules in the country doesn't necessarily imply that the country is communist. As I said earlier, China is not "a classless, stateless society based on common ownership of the means of production", per the definition of communism (according to Wikipedia).
Alasdair, London,
Lim, Malaysia.
Historical facts cannot be ignored. Your arguments seem based more on emotional opinion than sound knowledge of the subject.
Colin, Carmarthen, UK
Colin, Carmarthen, UK
You make a creative writer. You even dream that in 10 years time, Chinese will have a new government. Listen, not hear the Chinese people do not mind the type of government so long as they do the job well and the Chinese people benefit and the country progress. Pls wake up.
Lim, Johor Bahru, Malaysia
Good work to Simon for the courage to try and write an article like this. But please, Simon and anyone else with similar ideas, be much more careful next time. I know the point you are trying to make is well-intended. But there are things in this article that could be construed as very offensive.
Ryan, Melbourne, Australia
As China born Chinese now studying overseas, I must say due to limited information, Chinese in China may think in favor of their government because they compare current CP with the past, there is definitely an improvement. But still far from "democracy".
Not because they are brainwashed or spies.
Cui, Wellington,
Some people consider all the positive comments here towards the Chinese government are fake, I wonder who is been brainwashed by the propaganda?
Cui, Wellington,
Look, the majority of Chinese people are acutally wonderful people. I have been there 10 - 12 times for business and pleasure. The problem IS the government, and their intense and continuing subliminal ideological training, which even is affecting one of my friends living there right now from the US
Greg, Minneapolis, USA
I like the article. People in the west need to learn a few things, and learn it fast, otherwise it is going to be quite tiring. China, in fact, Chinese, 1.4B of them worldwide, are on the rise on the world stage. Get used to it. Get to know them as indivuduals, it will help you folks.
Eugene, San Jose, CA, USA
Re: Alasdair: you sounds like pro Chinese. You really need to research more further to say this topic. Let's go back to 7 Century.
King Songstanginpo( 1 year before Tang Dynasty- Gaozu Empire period was still Tibet king rule Tibet country. Time by time sometimes they both decreed exercise jointly.
Miki, New York, USA
A step to understanding would be for the BBC to air it's excellent 5 part "Chinese Schools" programme on BBC1 rather than the obscure BBC4. This programme just shows things as they are (minus the usual standard sneering commentary).
L. Stewart, Cranbrook, UK
I really laugh at the preceding statement. If anything, the only thing so "Communist" about China is the fact that it's still ruled solely by the communist party. There's no longer anything known as "common ownership", which defines communism, and anyone can profit as much as they like these days!
Alasdair, London,
As for why they "invaded" Tibet? Back in the early 1910s, China was weak and Tibet took advantage of the chaos to split up through an unequal treaty. Once China is strong enough (in 1950), it's a matter of principle to go back and retake what's theirs.
Alasdair, London,
Actually, many members in other Parties and nonpartisan are in current Chinese Government. Lots of educated Chinese people including office-bearer know and are thinking about the historical shelf life for a one-party government (like those in Japan, Russia(USSR) and Mexico ever) of about 70 years.
L. Zhuang, Tianjin City, China
Communism has an historical shelf life of about 70 years. That leaves the Chinese Communist Party approx 10 years to go before final redundancy. That does not mean the Chinese People will disappear. On the contrary they will flourish by forming a new kind of government of their own choosing.
Colin, Carmarthen, UK
I think we should set up debate on the stage to clear up who belongs to Tibet? China claims they own Tibet. If they own Tibet why China invaded Tibet and killed millions against Tibetans wills? If Tibetan enjoys living under Chinese rule they do not need to seek as refugees at neighbours countries.
mag, Toronto, Canada
Excellent !! I love your comments.
This time China got black eyes on the world stage. They can say what ever they want. The whole world stress Tibet struggles.
This is just beginning.
Miki, New York, USA
Simon Barnes...a nicely paced piece attempting serious distinctions. Fate, in the Tibet-China issue, is allowing us to consider, pending unification of the global peoples, how we'd like the status of the Individual to rest within the Collective of 7 billion -- THE Conundrum for the Millennium !!!
Arnold Miyagawa, British Columbia, Canada
Bravo, Barnes, excellent article. This is precisely what the world desperately needs: more understanding (or at least attempts at understanding).
It is easy to hate, and it feels good to yell out slogans. It is human to fear and hate what we don't understand, and it takes courage to try.
Adam Bai, NYC, USA
the western ideas of 'democracy and freedoms' are based on causing other countries and their people to die, not only the middle east. it's covered by blood and they aint working. It is not a model that suits china. In fact most of the chinese are happy with their current communist govtenment.
daisy, london,
Colin , Carmarthen, UK
When China shipped arms to Zimbabwe u called Chinese Govt a bad government. When the West ships arms are they bad or good governments? Do not tell me your government, the US or France (just to mention a few Western powers) do not sell arms? Y d double standard?
250408
Lim, Johor Bahru, Malaysia
China has been held together artificially by the Chinese Communist Party ever since 1949. If the Communist Party were removed then a natural break up into ethnic regions would occur. Yugoslavia is one bloody example but that disaster does not have to be repeated. China is a very different place.
Colin, Carmarthen, UK
Given that a lot of the Chinese don't particularly like their government, and risk their own (partial) freedom and even lives to oppose it, I don't see any reason for us to be sensitive about what is, in every respect, a repressive dictatorship.
William McIlhagga, Ilkley,
>>Has the country ever tried something else different since 1949?
Sir, what works for you may not work for everybody. Deng said, black cat, white cat, whichever catches mice is a good cat!
So, thanks, save your something else for yourselves please. How about, you try to let Texas independent, or Alaska or Hawaii, just set an example for the rest of the the major powers, and let's see if we'd like it or not! How about it?
Bingo, Beijing, PRC
Yes we all know 1 party rule is not good governance. But going around bashing China whether we intend it for the government or not is sure not the right thing. Instead we are creating the youth of China to have bad impression of the west.
The youth of China only see that the west is bashing them them only even if CNN may intends it for the government.
They might be naive and ignorance due to media shut out 10 years ago, but they are as savvy as any other people in the world today due to the internet !.
They are not as naive as we all think that they only read what comes out from the government propaganda channel. The problem is a lot of what we hear and read in the west comes out from people who write with limited langauge abilities other than English, and who only write from a 5 stars hotel room, or get a english translator to do the rest of the other job.
This type of reporting is not helping people outside China to really know China. That is bad.
d. kean, hongkong,
Ideological value system gradually been abandoned since 3 decades before in China, after that China develop fast and the view of Chinese people improved much every year. However the western seems still hold its demoded ideology value system similar to the situation as China did 30 years ago ( then the medias in China are as biased as western medias , they always call for free and liberate the workers from capitalists' oppression in western countries ) , that is do bad to Chinese ,do bad to themselves , and do bad to the wholeworld. Can we be friendly to talk about our disputes?
luo, zhongshan,
I am not going to comment on the Olympic relay.
I wish to comment on six years of teaching experiencein China, including 31/2 in Jiangxi Province, one year in shanghai, and am currently in Tian Jin.
i am not afraid to identify myself and will do so at the end of this email.
My experiences over six years have been mainly postive from the very day I set food on the Beijing airport from Auckland.
I have met many hundreds of Chinese people, I havetaught some thousands of students[classes are often 60 students]
China is a very safe country ,
How many know the police never carry a gun.
Finally i could say a lot more,many ask me why do I enjoy living in China?Its the people is the reason, I am here on my own,but am never short of a chinese to look after me, and make sure I am Ok.
I met in 2002 one of the chinese leaders who was visiting a High School in Guangxi province,Chen Zili,this lady was the epitimome of elegance and chinese hospitality.
Come to China, before you criticise.
David Burt, Tian Jin, China
Look, either this serves as a beginning of a new "cold war" between West and China-Russia or let's say a new start of getting to know each other better and in-depth. I really don't like my Western friends commenting on what's going on in China, for what they believe is what they saw in their media, which always serves with a purpose. My point of view, westerns could come to see what's really going on there if people thinks it's bad here, and stop the arrogant supreme freedom ideology! I am born free too! I love peace and family, and everything good in Western moral standards, however, Chinese are generally more conservative than Westerners, or shall I say more family-oriented and collectivism-oriented. This does not mean we don't enjoy our life, just in different ways. We never judge the west with our point of view, if we were, then at least mine will be that at least EU is a very decay in terms of power and people, Muslims will sooner or later take over EU perhaps in less than 100yrs
Xu, Hong Kong,
But we never did it, never be judgmental. WE BELIEVE, Mutual respect and understanding is the best way for co-existence. Don't try to spread your whatsoever freedom as individual ideology to the rest of "Non-western" world just like what your ancestors did to spread Christianity forcibly to America and Africa. If the later option I previously mentioned will happen, then it's time to think again for yourself again, what happens in China must come with a reason, that people believe or act in a total different way. You need to understand and respect. After all, I dont see killing and wars here in China, however, a lot of terrorism and hatred in West though. Why? Think about it
Xu, Hong Kong,
I have lived in the USA for more than 50 yeears and now
retired. I once complained to a few of my black friends at work why was I treaded so badly by the whilte folks,. even though
I didn't do any thing to offend them. In fact, I tried to be very
friendly with them. I have never forgotten what they told me.
They said it didn't matter what you did., they wouldn't like
you anyway and.believe us, we were here longer than you, we
knew what the while folks.think and operate. So, I can say the while poeple of the Western world will never like us and we Chinese do not like them. Who coined the term "Yellow Peril" and "China syndrome" and "West is West, East is East , the twain never shall meet" Let's not kid ourselves. They have their own cultures and values, We have our own culture and values. It's high time to drop all the pretense and excuses.. The conflicts and struggles will go on forever. It's the survival of the fittest until one of us is vanquished. .
Jack T, Chicago , USA
Normally I would not argue with western people about anything related to Human Rights and Democracy in China. That is not because I dont have an opinion, but because I don't think we Chinese can argue with western people on a fair ground. It makes me laugh every time when I see theym so confidently judging China/Communist Party/Chinese based on limited information, which is unfortunately from "fair" media. You guys can choose to believe in Media, but I don't. I believe in national interests. I believe it is in the US and UK and many other "powerful" nations best interests to instage mistrust and suspicion among people against any country they don't feel comfortable with. Have you heard US--the human rights fighter--critiszing Human rights record in Saudi Arabia? No. What about US critisizing the puppet nations in Latin America? No. US and UK invaded Iraq to bring Human rights? No. Its previous ruler killed thousands, but US and UK troops killed millions.
Yao , London,
Paul Owen, Birmingham, UK
When you say you have a problem with the Communist govt., apparently you comment just based upon your limited and biased perception of what it did in the past, and communism being a thumb-down thing in the old cold war days. In fact, communism shares a very similar ideology with Confucius teaching - "the universe as a common property, the world in equality. One loves not one's kids but others, caring not just one's elderlies, but others. Let the olds have a home, the youngs be raised. Widowed, single, sick, handicapped all be cared and supported."
Furthermore, India though a democratic country by name, is actually monopolized by those "big" names and political leaders, with assassinations between rivals. If you prefer to deal with Indian, go ahead and may you be blessed, just keep your bud well padded so you won't be cheated or got burnt :)
ltbirar, Canada,
Dear Itbriar, Why is it not feasible for a someone to gain an indepth understanding of another nation's subcultures, history, folklore etc?I assume Adam's education on China at the School of Oriental African Studies (a worldwide ceter of excellence in London not Spain) far outdoes Harry's on the west. I quote "free scotland and northern ireland and boycott London Olympics"
Ned, Glencoe, Scotland
To Colin, Carmarthen, UK
In August 2007 France sold arms to Muammar Gaddafi of Libya in an amount of $405m (£199m). This was the regime responsible for the crash of Pan Am 103 over Lockerbie in Scotland. Who's selling arms to what unsavory regime?
Leigh, Washington, US
To: Luca, Beijing
About your question, as an HK immigrant to Canada, I throw the same question back to you.
With the bias media like CNN, Fox, etc., and different presses which clearly show their own stand here and there, with large corporations like Enron crashing overnight, and Bush administration claiming Iraq's WMD which never were discovered, please educate me, how much about your country or USA do you think you really know? You are also allowed to know what you are allowed, isn't it not so? So in fact, how different is China from US or UK or any other part of the World?
ATKC, San Francesco, US
Dear Adam:
Let's say, if I had told you, I hold a PhD degree in Spanish Foreign Affairs from a Canadian institution, speak Spanish for over 30 years, travel a lot in Spain, would you agree with my saying that Basque should be free from Spain? See the difference? A foreigner educated in a 3rd country can never really better understand the country he/she studied than the native people. Understand a nation's culture and subculture, history and related folklores is not as simple as you try to put it.
ltbriar, Vancouver, Canada
Although westerners have multi sources, but are you westerners really sure that what your multiple media tells you are not the same thing? As far as I can see, the reports the western media made are still based on your government's view. Your government and media are just good at playing false games to make you feel that you are not brain-washed. Plz check yourselves before blaming others.
Xin, Manchester, UK
Dear Chinese Readers you seem to think that all westerners are ignorant of your country and don't understand you. I studied Chinese history at SOAS and did a masters on Chinese Foreign Policy. I speak Chinese and have travelled all over China in the past 20 years. I still say Tibet must be freed from Chinese control.
Its not yours. It is a conquest of war from an invasionwrought by the man who unleashed the cultural revolution on you.
The Tibetan people have a right to their own country.
Adam, madrid, spain
No one has the right to criticize others(even what you have said disobeys the truth) unless you are sure that you know the truth, and witness what happened in reality.
What is human rights? Does it mean that the saboteurs can hurt or even kill people or break up the nation?
No investigation no truth.
Truth, Tianjin, China
we need rational discussion
zhang, qingdao,
As an Chinese, I want to say the western media have bias towards China. Thanks to internet, you can see the real voice from China.But if you even do not believe this, it is showing your nescience.
China have more then 200 million internet pepole, do you really think The Goverment can control this?
gavin, shaoxing, china
despite what the article here tried to point out, the Chinese living in china are different, very different, as they have been brainwashed by the Chinese state which disallows any freedom of expression unless approved. don't appease Chinese government by kow-towing to the supposed Chinese nationalism please, the majority of the Chinese although brainwashed are still capable of deciding right from wrong given the opportunity. bash Beijing now to replace it or live with the consequences for ever. history is not set on a course to freedom and peace, it all depends what we do. please do not appease Beijing.
pamanush, HK,
Dear foreign friends, though you proclaimed that we Chinese are the victims under the opression by the Chinese Communist Party, we don't feel this way. We are not brain-washed, at least I am not. I have never ever sent an application form to be a communist party member, though based on my excellent academic records, there are good chances that I would be selceted. I am not a big fan of the CP, but it doesn't mean the current situation in China is so bad that everyone is like living in hell. As a matter of fact, though our systems do have some flaws, we are making some progress, and as a result our economy is booming. The so-called Tibet peach protest is indeed a riot which killed hundreds of people and burned 5 innocent people to death, believe it or not. I just wanna say here, we do not feel hurt by the ruling of the CP, but we feel hurt by your repeatedly protest against Chinese people and Beijing Olympic. Do you have any idea how many effort have we made to prepare for this game?
Rachel, Guangzhou, China
Hi Colin, UK
As reported, the arms was ordered in January by Zimbabwe govn't. That could be strictly business activity or for its stratigic interest of resources. Zimbabwe govn't was lauded by its African peers until recent downfall of its economy for all sorts of reasons.
Please also note that US govn't regularly sell advanced weapons including their best fighter jets to Taiwan even though US gon't recognises China is the sole representative of China and Taiwan is part of China.
Imagine if another country tries to encourage North Irland to split from from UK by providing all sorts of weapons and intelligence.
Zhongmin Luo, London, UK
"Can you imagine how hard it is for a government to rule a country which is more than 30times of UK with 1.3 billion population?"
Absolutely. Maybe that gives you more reason to let certain regions like Tibet rule themselves - saves you the trouble.
"One party government may be the right choice for such a large population country at present. When we can't afford to spend so huge amount of money on presidential campaign as in US"
USA is not the only multi-party democracy in the world. Not all political campaigns require a large investment of money. You've been led to think that one-party system is the right choice. Has the country ever tried something else different since 1949?
"Plz think who is brain-washed. Is your media always say the truth?"
Of course not. But at least we have multiple sources to make our own judgement. If not, we have the freedom to do our own investigation and criticize our government. Do you? Can you?
DH, MD, USA,
Dear Helen, Beijing
The Chinese People do not offend us here in the west. That message has been repeated over and over again on this website. That must be quite clear to you by now.
What does offend everyone in the world is the policies of the Chinese Communist Party. Your Communist Government are currently supplying weapons and ammunition by ship to the murderous Mugabe Regime in Zimbabwe, Africa. Did you not know that? That is just one example of the kind of bad Chinese Government behaviour that we are all protesting about.
The message from the west to the Chinese people cannot be more obvious. Why do you not understand?
Colin , Carmarthen, UK
Human rights means everybody should have a happy life. It’s not possible for the people of a poor country to have human rights when they don’t have enough to eat. This is what China should concentrate now: work hard to develop economy- let 1.3 billion people have enough to eat.
We have been developing fast for the past years. We are proud of that. But some western people don’t feel comfortable about that.
When Mr. Simon Barnes said that “A lot of our fear and mistrust of China comes from the fact that it is a one-party state and that political unorthodoxy is discouraged.†You are partly right to criticize our one party government. But the philosophy is that everything has two sides. One party government may be the right choice for such a large population country at present. When we can’t afford to spend so huge amount of money on presidential campaign as in US, when we have to work more than 15 hours per day to feed ourselves, we’d better have one party for the moment.
No bias, no hatred please! When we Chinese are working hard for a happy life, have we done anything to offend you?
helen, Beijing,
I agree with the author of this very, very insightful article. So well written and so true, thank you. Yes, Westerners do tend to mix the two, politics and sports, i.e. the people.
These protests aren't against the people of China, they are against its regime and only.
We are a mixed Amerasian family and certainly feel with the oppressed people of China. And don't anyone suggest that they are not. !
Someone up there posted this here "We are not spied on and can express our own views. "
Yeah, you bet, and we believe you too and it never rains in California either.... !
I too protest the torch relay, but not the games. For those too many worldwide have worked too hard . If we were to scrap the games, all that would have been in vain and athletes may never get a chance at another Olympics.
It's the regime we want to show up!!
Free Tibet and all Chinese !!!
Laura, Volga, USA
Politics and sport cannot be separated during the Beijing Olympics because the Chinese People cannot separate themselves from their Government. As long as you imagine that the Chinese Government and the Chinese People are the same thing then the west will always view China negatively.
I am suspicious of these badly spelt postings from China. I suspect you are all Chinese Communist Party officials, or privileged University students allowed access to the internet not ordinary Chinese people.
Colin , Carmarthen, UK
Any westerner visiting China particularly during the Beijing Olympics will receive a completely faked up impression of the country. The CCP will have everything so totally correct it will make you wince. If China wants to welcome the world then you need to show the interior of the country warts and all. Then we might begin to have something in common and we might begin to believe what you say. If the whole Olympics Show is nothing but grand displays, colourful national dancing, big smiles, sparkling hotels, regimented audiences and all the other clutter of an over organised autocratic regime then it will be precisely what we expected. Banal and boring. We are not mechanical robot tourists but real thinking human beings and want to have real conversations with real thinking human Chinese People, not the faked up version of China as invented by the unelected Chinese Communist Party. Why don't you sit down and think about that and do something about it?
Colin , Carmarthen, UK
TO RHE, NJ, USA
How much do u know about CP?
How much do u know about our country?
How much do u know about our people?
You should know what your government do in Iraq, in Kosovo. You should know your John McCarthy, and his notorious McCarthyism.
Anyway, we welcome you come to China to find what happened in the past years we proud of, and we welcome you say your idea after you yourself get the basic truth.
Plz think who is brain-washed. Is your media always say the truth? Think about what happened on your propaganda before Iraq war
Zheng, Qingdao, China
It can't be denied that there are some difference in the cultures between western countries and China. We chinese are peace-loving people and we have our just human rights to think in a reasonable way in various situations. The leaders of Communist Party of China is trying to lead 1.3 billion people to live a more comfortable life---it's no easy work. I hope some of you can make some time to learn more about China before expressing unfriendly ideas about the Chinese. I really feel sorry when someone is against China while he or she knows so little about China
Lili, Jinan, China
to Edward(of Bristol, UK):
Can you imagine how hard it is for a government to rule a country which is more than 30times of UK with 1.3 billion population ?If you're one of the farmers,you're still a farmer 100 years later ,let alone 60 years.Have you noticed that china is growing and developing in such an incredible rate?
we're collective partly because there is a deeply rooted thought that we should put others and our country first ,and we're educated that we shouldn't just think about ourselves.we don't focus so much on the individulism but it doesn't mean we don't respect human rights.
amy, shanghai, china
To Xiaoshi (of Hebei, China):
How can it be said that the Communist Party represents the interests of the Chinese people while, after 60 years under its absolute rule, most of the Chinese people are still 'farmers' and are still 'uneducated'? 60 years are very very long.Isn't your ruler wasting your time?
Edward, Bristol, UK
in fact, china communist part are trying its best to represent people's interest, we cannot enjou enough democracy because of historicao idology.most of chinese are farmers who are not educated .so we chinese just need time to change.we also prefer democracy.but there are too many chinese and we must change ourselves carefullu ,or we will cause some riots like in tibet.
yao xiangshi, hefei, china
Why are we not allowed to have a great Olympic games this summer?
Is it not an infringement of OUR human rights?
We're a country of 1.3 billion people and countless good athletes and sports lovers. Don't let politics and ignorant prejudice distract you from what should be the real focus in the next few months - great excitement that we're about to hold one of the most successful Olympics ever!
Welcome to Beijing!
Bo Li, Birmingham, UK
To RHE in NJ
Dude not all chinese who post here are located in the west, and we who live in china do have access to many western sites (maybe not all). I dont work in the secret agency, I'm not in the Communist Party and never like it. We are not spied on and can express our own views.
Olympics is a sports event and should not be used for polical reasons. Many have said already: should we "free scotland and northern ireland and boycut London Olympics?" How about free america and give it back to the native Indians? I guess no Olympic games will be held anymore. Attacking the girl in wheelchair holding the torch, and allowing this to happen, are no signs of human rights neither.
Most chinese see the olympics as a chance to open to the world and make more progress. Trying to tarnish the event will angry its people and wont back down the government. China is far from perfect, but trying to demonize it will do no good to the west at all.
Harry, Beijing, China
We westerners do understand the point, but I am not at all sure that the Chinese people understand the west.
Please may I explain
Western objections are not directed at the Chinese People or Chinese Culture.
Western objections are directed at the Chinese Communist Party.
In the west our People are seperate from our Government. Our People and our Government are not the same thing. That is because in our democracy we often vote against our Government and replace it with a new one of our own choosing. This is the very basic difference between the west and China.
In China, the Chinese Communist Party tells you that the Government and the People are the same thing. This has been repeated so many times to you at school and on television that you now believe this to be true.
I have several Chinese friends. They live here in the democratic west and much prefer the freedoms they enjoy in the UK rather than living under communism in China.
Colin , Carmarthen, UK
It's changing! It's getting better!
You don't know the REAL China in modern days.
You still judge us through the old eyes.
busy bee, chengdu, China
Every time I read the articles written by westerners, I feel funny. They try to understand China, Chinese people and Chinese culture. But they always miss the point. - Jude
Jude, Shanghai, China
Emerson wrote: "I heard a very good explanation of the cultural differences between us on Irish radio the other week. The speaker was a female lecturer who taught Western / Irish/ Womens studies at one of China's best universities. Talking about human rights she explained how the initial batch of 'rights' in the UN declaration were designed by westerners - freedom of speach, assembly, right to work etc. The latter rights represented efforts by Asian countries - the right to food, the right to shelter. Much more basic and fundamental. "
The female lecturer spoke the "offical line" of the Chinese Government (which is equivalent to the Chinese Communist Party). Being pragmatic people, and having years of painful experience of witinessing what happened to people saying things otherwise, many (most?) Chinese would say the official line. Unless we see democratic election in China, you can't really understand the real Chinese people by just listenng them talk in public.
P Tsang, Hong Kong,
This has nothing to do with the Chinese people per se but everything to do with the Chinese communist government. Heck, they didn't even elect their government. The Chinese government would like nothing better than to make it a westerners v Chinese people affair.
beng low
chiangmai
beng low, chiangmai, thailand
I heard a very good explanation of the cultural differences between us on Irish radio the other week. The speaker was a female lecturer who taught Western / Irish/ Womens studies at one of China's best universities. Talking about human rights she explained how the initial batch of 'rights' in the UN declaration were designed by westerners - freedom of speach, assembly, right to work etc. The latter rights represented efforts by Asian countries - the right to food, the right to shelter. Much more basic and fundamental.
This means that when Westerners criticise China's human right record they do not understand what the problem is. They will point to millions more people who get enough to eat and have houses to live in. They think they are doing a great job.
Emerson, Chester,
Chinese like peace, and It is a right decision to hold the Olympic Games in Beijing.
fxr, Beijing,
Even the Chinese government has changed a lot in 22 years, Mr. Barnes.
Unfortunately, as you have pointed out, many of us in the West have not changed.
C L, Seattle, WA
Mutual Respect is what we need to deal with the Chinese matters. Respect them as normal human beings. Chinese people are of no difference to the people all over the world. China is Chinese people's China. When we attack China, do consider the feelings of the Chinese.
People should live peacefully with each other. Do respect each other.
Do not label the Chinese with evil.
The Olympics are a good chance for the rest of the world to understand China better. Chinese people deserve having a wonderful party.
Eric , Seoul, South Korea
For people in the US or UK, read this article: Monopoly Media Manipulation
http://www.michaelparenti.org/MonopolyMedia.html
Michael, San Jose, CA, USA
Jas, Alders, UK
You still have imperialist thinking. How do you contemplate using the massive power you have in hand to solve the Zimbabwe problem?
Don't you think the Zimbabwean people should resolve their own problem? Britain has lost the right to intervene. Don't you think it should be the United Nations duty to act if there was something wrong there?
Can there still be spheres of influence by any country in this 21st century. If the world is to have peace and trust, then all spheres of influence should be removed. Even the world only super power must not have any sphere of influence.
Can you say I am wrong when I accuse the West as meddlers in other people's affair? There is nothing wrong with the west. You just need to look at yourself in the mirror and do not be a busy body.
Good Morning, Jas, please wake up. This is the 21st century. No more old colonial days.
Good day
Lim, Johor Bahru, Malaysia
I do wonder what Western libeals would be writing about white Britons who were as blindly and fanatically nationalistic as the Chinese who are responding to this thread. What is even more worrying is that so many of these are Chinese who clearly benefit from living in Western democratic countries. However, Chinese readers won't be hurt by my comments because I am confident that Barnes will censor this posting.
Tam Earl-Aine, cheltenham,
To Chris Chan! What is your point? Do you stand behind Chinas invasion of Tibet and the treatment of the Tibetan people? It´s hard to know if comments like your´s are ment to be serious? Wake up!!
And yes! I have studying a good deal about this problem and some history behind it! It´s all wrong what China are doing!!
Roger Christiansson, Onsala, Sweden
Talk about changing China we cant even sort out our spere of influence in Zimbabwe. Right through this Mugabe has ignored the West. What is wrong with us. We have massive aircraft carriers, spend a fortune on transport aircraft, submarines yet allow one man to wage war on thwe africans in his country. Can you imagoine how brave these men and woman have been in voting against this thug. Surely we should look at the Israeli action at Entebe to see how a long range action could be conducted. Clearly ten years of negontiations have done nothing except undermine the reputaion of the West. We brought this dopwn on ourselves but the thing is that realy disturbes me is how our rulers do little. Is this our own future? Does this show that Democracy is weak and can be swept away?
Jas, Alders, UK
Chinese people are one of the bravest and kindest people on the earth.
Like it or not, you will witness the Revital of our country.
Can the mass media be really objective and neutral?
I don't think so!!!
But at least, please don't lie, ok?!
IF YOU JUST READ WESTERN NEWSPAPERS AND NEVER HOLD ANY POSITIVE ATTITUDE TO CHINA,THEN IT'S TIME TO SEE THE WORLD FROM A DIFFERENT ANGLE, BECAUSE I AM SORRY THAT YOU ARE "BRAIN-WASHED" UNAWARELY EITHER.
We have the dare to wait and see. C'est la vie.
Celia , Xi'an , China
United we stand , divided we fall.
Like it or not, you will witness the revival of our country.
Can the Mass Media be exactly objective and neutral, I never think so. But at least, please don't lie, ok?
IF YOU ONLY READ WESTERN NEWSPAPERS AND NEVER HOLD ANY POSITIVE ATTITUDE TO CHINA, THEN IT'S TIME TO OBSERVE THE WORLD FROM SOME DIFFERENT ANGLES, BECAUSE I'M SORRY THAT YOU ARE "BRAIN-WASHED" UNAWARELY EITHER.
We have the dare to wait and see.
Love & Peace
Celia , Xi'an , China
I just wonder how many western protestors really understand the history of Tibet and its problems and conflicts against the Chinese government.
I kept listening to various so-called civilised radicals. They have only one point to talk about - the Chinese government destroys the freedom and democracy of Tibet. "What do you mean? Could you tell me some examples, other than those you read from the paper ? " asked I . They were all speechless.
Now, I understand democracy in some people eyes, in some people mouth, can be very superficial and contentless.
Chris Chan, Hong Kong,
I am married to a Chinese man and I can say China is a peaceful fantastic country and the western propaganda is terrible and all this rubbish about Tibet. I hope that China is understood eventually but guess what - China does not need the west and does not need their limited opinions of superiority complex and political manipulation.
laura Ji, Oxford, UK
Thank you Simon, the sports columnist who have more moderate and maybe more insightful understanding of the current debates on the Torch issue, than many other prejudiced rightist here who denounces the "imaginary" communist state really hard.
But, is there ever really a true communist state now in the world? Maybe economically in Scandinavia, but never in China or USSR, as a Chinese I know this for sure.
Keep up your pressure on human rights, but in a more tactful way, as not to stir up the nationalistic sentiment among the ppl in China. Anyway what truely matters to my country now, in my opinion is the widening gap between the rich and poor, namely the issue or unequal distribution of wealth.
Human rights is all too ideal an issue to talk about, when one thinks of the well disguised deprivation and robbery committed by the USA government in the name of freedom in IRAQ . So, get real and get reasonable.
Alex, Chongqing, Chongqing
My dear westerners, how can you judge only Chinese people has been brainwashed? Haven't you? If Chinese people who live in China has been banned from the world by the Gov., then how can you explain those overseas Chinese, living in western country ,got angry with westen media and those protesters?
Mentioning about human rights, why don't you respect the human rights of over 1 billion Chinese people? Or at least we over one million netizens online?
Chinese people are not rich enough by now, but our brains are not poor.
By the way, I'm not the member from any party, otherwise, I could be bloody rich only for these days!
Would you please kindly allow us to love our motherland?
Melva, Beijing, CHINA
Is it opium time again? China used to be attacked by those bully countries. It looks like that the whole tibet thing provoked a lot of westeners from different countries have a go with the Chinese people, including Mr Barnes. What a stupid comment on '' Chinese look the same". Is that called racism in civilised English speaking country?
lucy , shanghai, china
If there is such "brutal crushing" of the Tibetan people, why are there Tibetans now throughout China, why are Tibetan monasteries allowed in other provinces of China, why are Tibetans allowed to have more children that Han Chinese?
However, I don't think the anti-Chinese sentiment is so much racism as it is economic fear and jealousy. How dare those
people threaten the Western economic dominance of the world?
Let's make up stories about them.
zjemi, Florence, Massachusetts
Regarding "Olympic is not the right platform to protest", we should be mindful that Tibetans have been trying to reach out to the Chinese gov't for the last 20+ yrs for dialogue. But all the Chinese do is completely ignore about it until recently because of International pressure China has "opened up" for dialagoue with preconditions that the Dalai Lama must stop seeking independence (even though the world knows that he's been asking for genuine autonomy) and that he must proclaim that the "Taiwan is part of CHina!!!" What has Taiwan got to do with Tibet? In anycase, Tibetans were protesting peacefully on March 10th which was the 49th anniversary since the illegal occupation, however that peaceful protest by the monks where immediately suppressed by brutal force that laypeople begin to stand up for the monks who they witnessed in front of the eyes. soon these unrest begin to happen and spread through the Tibetan plateau due to radio news abrod in remote villages in Eastern Tibet. Tibetans don't have guns to shoot back!! All they have is knives and sticks and stones.. against machine guns, tanks, snipper rifles!! Have you heard news of Tibetan using guns to kill? Not even CCTV has proof of that! So Tibetans have become very desperate now and they know that the world is paying attention to China and they are crying out to the world for help!!! As a person living in a free world we must do something to help them! China is great nation ofcourse, we are Asian brothers and sisters but if we are treated like animals (now for almost 50yrs) and no repect to our culture and traditions they how can we SHUT UP??? Please open you eyes and try to understand the root cause of Tibet's problem!! I've been to Tibet twice and I didn't meet one person who didn't have a family member or relatives killed directly by the Chinese regime! Its very sad....
Tenzin
tenzin, seattle,
China keeps on fighting back against the protesters saying "How can YOU talk about human rights, you're destroying Iraq!". With regards to the Iraq situation, I remember a certain march I went to a few years ago in London that at the time was pretty famous and featured millions of people (in a country of only 60 million) protesting against the war in Iraq. When people over here heard about Guantanamo bay, no one was happy and the same goes for any other human rights abuse that we've heard of that our governments are responsible of. Unfortunately given the governments we have, they didn't listen to us and it seems that the power of protest has become rather insignificant, but don't think for a moment we are happy with our governments doing this.
I find the chinese to have a difference about them that is hard for us westerners to comprehend and I'd imagine vice versa. But I am certain, regardless of media opinion, the Chinese people are a peaceful lot and would not encourage violence.
Jamie, Brighton, UK,
Simon Barnes has used a trump card by calling Westerners who condemn China's human rights record racists. That should shut us up and I note that just in case it doesn't, letters that fail to eulogise Chinese people, even if based on experience, have been censored from this thread.
Marion Morrison, cheltenham,
TO Y.Z Dong, Harbin, China
you seem to think that China is such a free speaking country, I quote "say what is in our heart".
I believe a few hundred CHINESE protesters tried to do just that about 19 years ago in what the Chinese government likes to call the tiananmen square "incident" ...
And having spent 4 years in Shanghai I can honestly say that the government is a controlling force which has turned 1.3 billion people into drones who have no freedom of speech and no opinion what so ever!
Dean, Shanghai, China
Luca, Beijing, China
You must be an expat living in Beijing. Tell me do you really know your own country so well that you feel it is okay for you to ask the Chinese in China. Are you so very sure that your Government has revealed to you all of the things they did or intended to do. If you cannot answer 100 % yes, then you have no reason to ask others.
I am very sure no government on this planet is so open that its citizen knows all..
Perhaps Mr.Luca, you should be more specific. What do you think the people in China do not know? Is it necessary?
What they know is China is now a powerful country. More cars on the road, 3rd country to send spacemen, Chang Er in moon orbit (not a dream), good food on the table, free to travel out of the country, encouraged to learn English, high rise living development and progress and so forth. What else should they want to know. Go to jail if you commit a crime? Life is short. Need not worry..
Have I answered you,Mr.Luca.
120408
Lim, Johor Bahru, Malaysia
Would it be too presumptuous to suggest a few Times articles on the dangers for westerners on foreign soil as trouble unfolds.
It would be tragic for Brits and Aussies to be caught in the Far East if things suddenly went tropo.
Id like to see some major travel warnings even this early.
MI6 could jump on and say what they already know is brewing.
G. Gibson, Sydney, Australia
of course, every one should hold a hostile attitude toward to the communist government .most chinese people are just being misleaded by the government about all the truths which have slightly related to the human right issues.therefore, please be patient. and do not feel frustrated toward the actions carried out by those people in dark. we do need your help!
a young man from china
cty, zhejiang hangzhou, china
Most Chinese do seem to support their government on this issue and not primarily because they have been "brainwashed". More simply because most people have a sense of affiliation with their nation and thus want to believe that their country is doing the right thing; that they are the good guys. From a Chinese perspective Tibetan living conditions have improved markedly, as a minority Tibetans are treated well with special privilages, and during the violent riots the Chinese police did what any country's would do and tried to restore stability. All the time they see themselves villified by many in the "west" (good point on that Luca) and to have the huge festival that they have been so looking forward to enjoying with visitors from around the globe tarred. I understand the anger and I say this as someone who feels very strongly that the people of Tibet today (Tibetan and Han)should be allowed self-determination on whether they want their future (forget the past) as part of China.
David Williams, Beijing, China
Well two from Shanghai, then you treat your "citizens" very badly. Maybe they don't want your fraternal socialist passport at all and would like to go their own way in the world. True socialism, according to Marx, would allow that in the first instance.
Maurice Le Poes, Brussels,
"Chinese people: they all look the same", "They will all have the same face and the same name, or seem to".
Your comments in the article are racist- how dare you advocate this sort of ignorance! I am sure that you would not have written a similar article about an African/Black community. Would you dare have said 'black people all look the same', " black people all seem to have the same face". Racism should not be tolerated in any form- against any race. I am a white british, yet indifference and ignorance is unacceptable.
Sean Johnson, Ruislip, England
David, Bromley,
David, it is a sad thing. A number of anti-China critics are just like you, same mentality. One suggested that the Athletes attend the ceremony but dressed in Saffron robes.
What else can you guys think of? What about this. " If you cannot beat them, join them." How about it? David. Join us One World One Dream.
12-04-08
Lim, Johor Bahru, Malaysia
Kat California
"Racism is so not the point here."
You completely misunderstand how the population of China view the Olympic Games. Holding a successful Olympic Games has become a symbol of national pride for the population of China (whether they support the communist government or not).
By all means criticise the Chinese government. But these protests have attacked the very heart of national pride in China. Would you advocate that the critics of the Bush administration attack the US flag ? Yet, it is somehow easier to blur the lines between the government and the people / national symbols when it comes to China . That is the point of Simon Barnes article - there are racial issues here - hence the reason that many of your Chinese American compatriots came out in support of the Olympic torch in San Francisco.
KO, London,
Hu Jintao doe not behave like a world class president. He bares his teeth in angry resentment at every critical remark. He makes unsubatantiated accusations against anyone and everyone who contradicts or opposes the communist party line. The ultimate joke is accusing the Dalai Lama of fomenting unrest in Tibet. To all intelligent observers this is obvious nonsense and mere political scapegoating.
Where is the discussion and diplomacy that should dignify the high office of President? Why does this man dispense fear and threats instead of confidence and hope? China will never find a place on the world stage until the nation has a President and leadership up to the job.
Colin , Carmarthen, UK
Worrying
Perhaps the most worrying aspect of all of this is that everyone in China - and even ethnic Chinese in other countries - seem to have the same view.
Or do they?
I have read too many Chinese books to believe that all Chinese people a) like Communism, and b) have no compassion.
This is why I don't believe a great many of the posts. Some will be real; but some will be paid Party members, family and hangers-on.
(In Communism some Party members are more equal than others.)
Let's cut the nonsense: China invaded a sovereign country that was a buffer between other countries. The status quo worked well until Mao decided to grab it.
It is all to do with spheres of influence for the new up and coming superpowers: India and China.
It just so happens that China got their first.
It is boring listening to half-witted Communist Party drones treating their own people like unthinking babies. You really must try harder with your propaganda for the West. I don't buy it.
joe, Berwickshire, Scotland
How fairly the West treat the Chinese people now will go deep into the hearts and souls of billions of ordinary Chinese for a long, long time.
Don't worry, the Chinese will not strap bombs to themselves to blow up the London subway, or Eiffel Tower, or Empire State building. They will just wipe the spits off their faces, and go on. They will become more self-determined and self-reliant.
Most of the Chinese people bear strong pro-west sentiments. Why do you want to trample on such a sincere good will of so many people?
You don't have enough "Red Coats" to send to China or bomb it into submission with "Shock and Awe". It is the West that needs to come to terms with the Chinese just the same as the Brits did with the Americans, (may be).
There are billions of hands reaching out. Take them! There are billions of arms open. Embrace them!
Tibetan brothers and sisters, your best chance for a better life is not Nancy Pelosi or Gordon Brown. It is your Han brothers and sisters live next door.
TCm, California, USA
I for one have no problem with the Chinese people, just their government. They have been indulged for too long and could turn out to be dangerous. It is time to stand up to them before it is too late.
It is convenient for western companies to deal with a totalitarian state. Decisions are made more quickly, dissent is not tolerated. We should examine our consciences about all of our dealings with China. Why has it been so favoured when just next door there is another vast and emerging nation, India, that also happens to be a democracy? Is it because China is easier to deal with? Then we should be ashamed.
The Olympics should never have been given to China until they made real tangible progress on human rights. It is not too late to put a halt to this. Let's have our sports tournaments in places like Sydney or Athens. In fact let's move this year's Olympics to one of those cities. That will show the Chinese government we mean business and the Chinese people that we care.
Paul Owen, Birmingham, UK
Ni hao to all! I understand your anger, I am a latinamerican who lived in your country for several years, I know you are very proud people who love your country, past and culture, don't we all? I feel sad to see "the west", and may i remind you i am a westerner as well, using The Olympics to make an example of you, to "show" the world what China is like, what everyone seems to forget is that human rigths abuse exists everywhere to a lesser or greater extent, let's mention some African countries to see people's fear and disgust, let us do the same with south and central american countries and you'll hear comments about war, poverty, lack of development, drugs, kidnapping and so on. Perhaps it is the media we ought to judge and not a country's individuals who are overall caring, welcoming and wanting to present a good image to the outside world. It is people who report news who present such a distorted image of what other countries are like.
Mimi, Chiloe, Chile
GO CHINA!
Once a Chinese, always a Chinese.
The West have no right to comment on what is going on in Tibet. You guys support the Iraqi war and have made a huge mess! Sort your problems first before meddling into China.
A Proud Chinese, Y, Singapore, Singapore
Maybe, the majority of Chines people want to live in peace but the Communist Government is singing a different tune. They have and continue to threaten Taiwan, They are sitting on Indian land, they are viciously colonizing and commiting cultural genocide in Tibet; hardly actions of a peace seeking peace loving nation. Go back to 1961/2 when they attacked India after signing a five point treaty of peaceful co-existence. Their military build-up hardly indicates peaceful intentions. They just cannot be trusted. If the rest of the world do not keep their guard up, look out, we will regret it.
Johan, Toronto, Canada
It seems that the Chinese government is missing a huge chance to show the world that they have good intentions--bashing the Dalai Lama who is one of the most beloved people in the world just makes them look backward and foolish.
As for the Chinese people, there is also a considerable mass hallucination going on there as well--I am sorry to say that personally know far too many Chinese Americans who are running around spouting the propaganda produced by the government of China, when the whole world knows the truth about the treatment of the Tibetans. It is a deeply shameful legacy on the part of Bejing and its lovers.
I respectfully disagree with the author of this article. I believe now is an opportunity for the Chinese to wake up and join the world. We are waiting for that nation and many of its far flung former residents to stop playing the victim card.
I don't dislike the Chinese, I dislike how they act. And, in general, they make themselves the enemy of everyone.
Rhonan, Seattle,
Even assuming those apologists for the Chinese government who point to western imperialism and cry "hypocrite" are right, that says nothing of the plight of "undesirable" people like the the Falun Gong (sp?) practitioners'.
They are being imprisoned, tortured and having their organs "harvested," or more accurately "surgically stolen and sold", by the Communist party
Contemplate the monstrousness of that for a moment. Imagine what it would mean if even your own vital organs were not beyond the inhuman, rapacious grasp of the state.
This alone more than warrants the protests. It will be best if they grow so strong as to prevent the games entirely.
Umn, Stamford, CT
All nations have major problems and often look at
the problems of other nations and criticize them.
I am 72 years old and 3 yrs ago a very wealthy
friend (retired anthropolgist) gave me the chance to
travel and meet the rural people of ancient China.
A culture 3500 years old and the same as my personal life of struggling to raise a family working the land. Our children have left us. Mine have college degrees and live in big cities. Their children work in factories making my clothes and other trade goods.
For 14 months we shared food and love for each other and ourfear of weather and the destiny of our children.We also shared our love of music, dance and poetic drama ignoring modern politics, religion and world class athletic events.
I have found Chinese common people to be very
proud of their struggle and endurance but I love
them because they loved me and when we were hungry and ate from one bowl of rice we fed the
children first. Very loving and polite people.
John Murphy Shaw, Prescott, Arizona/USA
I have witnessed first hand the pride that Beijingers have in their city, their excitement at winning the games and their sense of eagerness to host and entertain the hundreds of thousands of visitors who will be arriving in the summer. They do not pocess the cynicysm that I myself and I'm sure a lot of others feel about the Olympics. They are almost childlike in their enthusiasm for it. To see ad campaigns extolling the people to stop spitting, queue like westerners and learn English phrases so that they might be better hosts is frankly humbling. They really, really want the world to see them for what they are. Proud, hospitipal, friendly and believe it or not, exactly the same as the rest of us. People with the same burdens, aspirations, desires and emotions. The Olympic Games is Beijing's coming out party and we should be welcoming them to the global family. Whatever their government is up to is no reflection on the people of Beijing.
Andy, Beijing, China
Amen to this article. Something nice to say about China at last!!
Jim, Wenzhou, China
I speak as an individual of chinese origins not born in china nor ever to have set foot on chinese soil. China's hard-line policy is a natural result of the difficulty in controlling its large populus. One cannot expect the same level of efficiency when comparing goverance with that of a smaller country based on the same rules. Obeyance is something human beings are generally against and us humans are as Thomas Hobbes rightly identified comtemptuous and opportunistic beings. Take for example the freedom argument and tag freedom of speech with aggressive hijacking of businesses like the Huntingdon Life Sciences affair. Has freedom done anything for the brit born terrorists who have chosen to bite the fingers that feed them? That is a real pain for this government or any government. Oppression of course is not entirely justifiable, but give them time to exact change.
My two cents worth of opinion would be worth a lifetime of your earnings if you fail to understand such simple logic.
Darren, London, United Kingdom
Thanks for what the western do about the Olympic Game. I know that we Hong Kong people are really Chinese, not british. I feel shame as we were the citizen of a colony of britain before 1997. Since 1997, we were actually FREE. Free from being a colony of such a nation,full of distorted news materials, full of people that do not respect the others, only know saying others are being brainwashed.I never feel I love my country so much. I am proud of being a Chinese, forever!
Andre, Hong Kong, China
Is chinese bashing the latest trend ? It feels like the whole world is against us ! We open our hearts to wellcome you all but in return we get a smack in the face. It's true a lot of old people learned english because they wanted to greet the visitors and No they don't get paid by the government. I am speaking for myself only but now i wish we was not awarded the Olympics.
Lily, H.K., China
Why Chinese people got angry? I can't explain others, but my piont of view.
It's our good will to hold this Olympic cuz we think it could be a chance for China to make great progress on most of sides. However, most of western countries tried to humiliate our will. We ordinary Chinese have worked that hard for the Game. Have you seen aged people learn English that hard only for welcoming you, and most of us even improve the details in our daily behavirs, and now, you western guys said China is not qualified to hold it. When the protesters ruined the relay, too many westerners applaused beside...... If someone throw rubbish to your smiling face, will you still be peaceful whille seeing Chinese applausing aside?? Will you??
Melva, Beijing, P.R.CHINA
Are all these chants and chest pounding from the West to the drum beats of human rights real benevolent acts for justice? or self-righteous, or ignorant, or another form of remedy for "white guilt"? One must wonder.
How long ago the ‘enlightened ones†thought slavery was justified, or even divine?
What would the West say if a couple of thousand American Indians take to the streets of Los Angeles, demanding their lands back and declaring independence as the “Republic of Cherokee� What an insolent notion!
Do you think any American Indian chief to “peacefully†propose such a thing would receive a Nobel Prize; perhaps, a Congressional Medal of Honor; or at least the EU Parliament would demand President Bush to have a “dialogue†with the American Indian chief, otherwise the heads of its member state will not show up at the next G8 meeting? Any chance? No! The Chief will belong to the asylum!
Do you see why the Chinese, inside and outside of China, are not buying?
TC, California, USA
To Lim, Johor Bahru, Malaysia
Thank you for your very civilised reply, it is very clear the message you are trying to convey and I think we could debate about it endlessly. In genereal, do not quite agree with the concept that there are two separate and well defined groups. Moreover, at the core of the current debate it seems to me that there is more of a Chinese Vs Non-Chinese stance whereby any allegation against China's human rights record must be staunchly denied, in spite of clear evidence that the breaches are there for everyone to see.
To me, some rights are inalienable by definition and it's not just a 'western' thing. I would challenge all those who deny it, to keep the same line if they found themselves in a situation where their legal safeguard, just to mention one, was by no means guaranteed.
That's what I meant with lack of self-critical skills.
Luca, Beijing, China
I am a Tibetan and I do not hate Chinese people at large. But I do demand Tibetan Independence. Lots of Chinese bloggers are ignoring human rights issue in China out of blind natiionalism and if they love living under restrictive laws, it is their choice. Tibetans are not Chinese and no amount of force or propaganda can change that fact. Reasons like feudalism and backwardness of Tibet do not give China right to invade Tibet. Colonism should end now. We live in the 21st Century. Human beings everwhere should be free to live without fear of losing lives and limps. Tibetans do not have that right now. Support Tibet.
yakmanok, Madison, USA
To Bill Adams, London, UK
"Is China's treatment of Tibet comparable to England's treatment of Scotland? "
If Scotland declared independence, do you seriously think the 'UK' would say "no, you can't" ?
Marco, KrakOw, Poland
Regardless of the situation in Tibet, disrupting the Olympics is a bit of fashionable expression which is a bit more fun than checking differences of one-hundredth of a second. The Chinese like precision in their parades and performances. Disruption becomes the sport.
David, Bromley,
Free Corsica
Free North Ireland
Free Scotland
Free New Mexico
Free Falkland Islands
...
jacob, shanghai, China
To Bill Adams, London, UK
"Is China's treatment of Tibet comparable to England's treatment of Scotland? "
No.