i am sorry but they are the WORST ten reasons why football is better than rugby! please tell me what is exciting about watching pretty boys run round a pitch passing a bit and doing an outrageous amount of diving for about 20 seconds of excitment when they score a goal please tell me!!

Cameroon , London , England

David Beckham? the most overrated guy in soccer, who now plays in america? Wilkinson could run circles around beckham and he's a better kicker. Soccer requires running for a brief ten seconds, to get the ball and kick it to a teammate, MARVELOUS. in rugby, there is no stops in play and for the record, soccer players are PATHETICALLY UNFIT (how difficult is it to jog and kick a ball?).

Jay, Toronto, Canada

"Rugby requires a diverse set of skills requiring strength and coordination of your whole body. And rucking, scrumming, & mauling are more than just jumping on a pile. There's a lot of technique involved, and it takes a lot more to run through someone who's trying to own you than to run or pass around them. The latter found in both sports, but the first only in rugby. "

What are you on about? Rugby and skill dont make me laugh.I ts simple get the egg and run, no skill involved, anybody catch an egg and throw it, then push sum fat guys around in a big crowd. Where is the skill?

Bazza, Manchester,

Well Dave L. I'll be "the first" rugby fan to suggest that rugby does require more skill than soccer.

Rugby requires a diverse set of skills requiring strength and coordination of your whole body. And rucking, scrumming, & mauling are more than just jumping on a pile. There's a lot of technique involved, and it takes a lot more to run through someone who's trying to own you than to run or pass around them. The latter found in both sports, but the first only in rugby.

And while sometimes a guy just walks across the goal line, that's because 14 guys did something amazing beforehand

In soccer, you need to learn how to kick, kick some more, run without a ball in your hand, and for the higher levels, take acting lessons (to look like your tap from another soccer player actually dealt a serious injury).

and soccer more exciting? Please. Except for baseball, I can't think of a sport where the ball goes back on forth so many times having nothing significant happen.

Joel , San Diego, California

I like the game of football as a sport, however the people who play it and those who watch it ruin the game completely.

For point 1; the song is about passion and tean play, whereas any song sung at a football game is about the world wars. not very sporting

Point 2;Im fairly sure the sporting world stooped to take a look at the England team that had dominated the sport all over the world for the past 3 years. I seem to remember a fairly impressive dispaly in London after the World Cup when a few people came to support our teams parade.

Point 3; The football world cup has been going for 77 years and you have reached 1 final. the rugby world cup has been going for 20 and we have reached 3.

Point 4;Lomu; Spencer, Kirk, Jack, Wilson, Cullen, ,Mehrtens Fitzpatrick; Brooke, Umaga. Need I say more?

Point 5; Your point makes no sense. The football positions make just as much sense as rugby ones.

Nick Fox, cookham,

Anyone can catch a ball (ovoid?) tuck it under the arm and run, but watch a quality footballer; he will bring the ball under instant control, whether coming through the air or on the ground, with chest, thigh and feet. Playing football well requires a much higher level of pure skill and to me - who has experience of playing both - makes it an intrinsically superior game. Rugby has no equivalents to Pele, Cruyff, Best or Henry.

Tony Hall, London, England

Sure this article is a bit of fun. However, despite being an avid football fan I think its a load of twaddle. I attended England v South Africa at Twickenham last year and it was such a good day, depite the match being very average and England losing. I was able to sit in my chair, with a beer, next to a South African and share views on the match. I attended England v Estonia on Saturday and was embarrased to be English. Lager louts singing 10 German bombers and generally being disgraceful ruined the pre-match drink. Then, inside, segregated supporters are not even allowed a beer due to FIFA rules. Then a player who has always tried his heart out for our country got booed and at least half the ground emptied before the final whistle. Great fun.

Sam, London,

The media including the EBC (english broadcasting corporation) hardly mentioned Rugby when Wales ruled the Rugby world. Anyway football is for "dulluns".You have to think to enjoy Rugby.!

Eddie , Crossgates, Radnor County

I believe you footy boys are just jealous because we can’t win the football world cup! Even if there is a lot more countries entering the football, surely with England having some of the best players in the world we'd be able to do it!!!

Lee, london,

As an Australian I can say that football is much better than rugby. Last time we played England at football we flogged you, last time we played you at rugby we lost.

Matt, london,

You think the All Blacks would be terrified of a pasty chav from Millwall? Interesting....

Lee, London,

I am a football fan. It is something I love dearly and in my opinion I believe it has all the best and worst aspects of human nature within it... I love that no matter which country you are in you can understand and communicate your love for the game or a great player... Charlton, Pele, Maradona, Rooney etc etc regardless of language barrier. I have joined in kickabouts with strangers on beaches knowing not a word of the native language and had an amazing time. It IS the world game.

Englands rugby team have done amzingly well and anyone who does not respect their will and determination after being written off so harshly, in my opinion, does not understand the true values of football either. Both games are all about spirit and endeavor. Lets enjoy that.

And try to leave class out of it...

Duncan Edwards, Manchester, UK

The definitive proof that people care more about football than rugby, regardless of my personal views, is that as I write this there are 25 comments on the football page and NONE on the rugby page (ie 10 reasons why Rugby is better than Football).

Andrew, Luton - Newcastle Utd's ground is in the city centre, it holds just short of 60,000. Your point is? Innumberable football grounds are hemmed in on all sides by houses/commercial premises (Anfield, Goodison, White Hart Lane, Highbury as was), yet even Luton Town's ground holds way more than Bath's.

Rugby fans, please don't bring social class into it. That is a Southern English phenomena not shared around the rest of the world and simply not relevant to whether one sport is better than another.

The final damning evidence, is that not a single rugby fan (wisely!) has attempted to suggest that rugby requires more skill than football. Surely that is the central argument as to whether one sport is better than another?

Dave L, Hertford,

Well at least the English Ruby Players play with pride and passion when they play for their country unlike most of the English football team. We went into this World Cup as no hopers and look at us now, on the verge of an historic final whilst English football with all it so called world class talent has not one a trophy since 1966 (oh and by the way that was the only one) so why not stop all the debate and just get behind England RFU

Ben Carson, Sheffield, UK

Precisely, Tom of Chicago, precisely!

Barry, Brentwood, England, United Kingdom

Jeanette - you haven't got a clue. I've been going to football matches with my son for many years and we've never seen any trouble - ever. Get with the programme and live in the modern times. We're not in the early 1980's now.

Matthew, Worcester, UK

Football, I would say, is a more skillful game but Rugby Union is a better spectacle. It is less predictable as this World Cup has shown
RU has integrity in bucket loads(which football lacks completely at the moment), the players dont fall over then the wind picks up, and they also abstain from shouting at the ref in a manner that you would associate with ASBO kids out on the p*ss in Nottingham.
Football is being ruined by money, pure and simple.
Rugby is suprising a lot of people and proving very enjoyable to watch.
Go on and win it now boys and that will be 2 world cups in 4 years compared to Football's one world cup in 70!

James, London,

1. The England Rugby team have made us all be proud to be English...... when was the last time football did that!
2. Rugby players are men! Not overpaid boys who spend there life pretending they are hard and yet fall over with minimal contact and scream like women!
3. The list could go on and on, footballers have no respect for anything, at least are rugby team are intelligent enough to speak English properly!!

You can not even compare the same sports, it is stupid.

Maybe all you footballers are just all jealous.... and to be fair you have every reason to be.

Sam, Exeter, England

I think even Englands footballers might stand half a chance if they were competing in tournament where only 6 teams had a realistic chance of winning. Did anyone in the world really get that passionate about watching the Aussies and the Kiwis strolling over the line for their 15th try of the game in the group stages against a bunch of part timers? As for the argument about the scorelines, it slightly harder to score in football when you have to put the ball past a bloke standing in a goal rather than carrying it over a 70 metre wide line often with little or no resistance, hence a goal in football is many times more valuable than a try in rugby and is celebrated accordingly. If 1-0 or 0-0 is an uninspiring scoreline then surely the same can be said of 100-0. At least a game that ends 0-0 is an evenly matched contest, no matter what the quality.

Tony , London, England

A couple more thoughts:

Firstly, Rugby is not some gentleman's sport completely free of cheating. Does no one remember the spear tackle on O'Driscoll in the Lions tour? Surely there is something a bit wrong about where a deliberate foul which could easily have led to someone's death gets met with general indifference, even calls for O'Driscoll to 'get over it'.

Say what you like about football, but deliberately trying to injure someone else is the exception rather than the rule.

Secondly, Rugby is depressingly predictable. Argentina would be about the only romantic underdog story I can remember from a rugby world cup. Essentially the better team on paper pretty much always wins, and even Guus Hiidink would not be able to change this.

For me, bizarre wierdo that I am, I find that not knowing in advance who will win the game I am watching actually adds something to the excitement...

Seb Crankshaw, London, England

Sweet if the all blacks do a haka down in Milwall......maybe they could return the favour and sing some stupid british football song in south auckland, see how that goes down.......they wouldn't last 5 minutes

TMac, Auckland,

oikball is and was always a game for the little flowers who were not strong enough to play rugby. (especially here in Cornwall)

mike jensen, truro, uk

a good start but why stop at 10?

11. football matters to real people all over the world every day. rugby doesn't

12. in what other sport does the ball have a such a ridiculous shape that non-one can predict which direction it will bounce in?

13. football fans have loyalty, passion, wit; rugby fans have bones for heads and disappear if england aren't playing in a world cup final (at least in this country)

14. in response to hamish - the sort of game that finishes 1-0 is one based on skill. its a difficult skill to score a goal. its not just about a red faced tubby chap running past a line

15. when was the last time you went on holiday or took a walk around your neighbourhood to see some kids throwing a rugby ball around? it doesn't happen because kids like most discerning adults find it boring

Footy man, London, uk

To Jeanette Cocker, Cheltenham, England

"You forget to mention that you can safely go to watch a premiership rugby match anywhere in England and not get your head smashed in!! "

- that sounds remarkably similar to the situation surrounding Premiership football matches in England to me.

To Adam Banks, worcester,

" football doesn't matter. "

- except to the vast majority of the sport watching population that it does matter, a majority that massively dwarfs English rugby English fanship


To Chris, Aberdeen,

"rugby is better than football because you dont have to segregate the fans, o and we can have a drink in the stadium too. "

- being able to drink in the stadium and fratanise afterwards with oposing fans freely is, i must admit, a far greater situation than having to sink a pint in the 15 min break. But for me it, still doesn't make up for the dull spectacle you lot have to put up with for 80 mins ;-)

Leon, London, UK

Great article Kaveh very funny.
To all the rugby supporters out there (paraphrasing Cr.Dundee) "Call that a world cup"
Hilarious

Nat, London, London

Jeanette: Nobody is debating the safety of viewing the sport, that is a matter for police etc and has nothing to do with the quality of a sport, just because I won't get mugged watching Polo doesn't make it good.
Adam: Leave Britain, France and Antipodea behind and ask if rugby matters and they will ask you what rugby is.
Greg: I'm not English, who cares if England win. Intellect, that doesn't sound like good old fashioned class prejudice to me. In rugby?? Never. Dida, I would rather play football with an athlete like him who (right or wrongly) used his own brain to decide what to rather than someone who thinks a sport involves being a robot and jumping on a pile of men every 30 seconds.
Tarquin: Rugby may be stealing the column inches for a minute because this country which is so starved for football success has to cling on to anything else, and it is the World Cup of England's 2nd sport, it's the same if England win the cricket, when it's over it'll be Football Focus again TBC...

Anthony, London,

Tarquin: I love this attitude that because rugby as a sport involves more hitting that you are therefore 'harder'. If you think going to Repton/Harrow/Eton and playing 'touch' rugger with the lads makes you hard, think again, go to Millwall, Bootle (or especially Rome, Buenos Aires or Rio) and tell them how hard wearing polo shirts makes you. I would bank on little Robinho taking on any random England player, a swift (and abhorrent to Mr Rugby Fair Play) kick in the balls and score 1 to footie.
Andrew: Good point, the price of lower-league football is a disgrace but it still doesn't make rugby better to watch.
In conclusion, the mere suggestion that rugby has anything to offer sportwise compared to football is a joke that most of the world laughs at a lot.

Anthony, London,

It was Philip Toynbee, not Polly Toynbee (or George Orwell).

I'm a football fan myself but to say there are no famous All Blacks is just silly. Jonah Lomu anyone?

jonny, manchester,

So, the consensus here is that rugby is better than football because England have won a tournament and got to another final, there's always a match winner so that when two teams of equal ability and character meet you don't get any of those boring nasty draws (sound like American sports anyone?!?), and you have to drink during a match in order to be able to enjoy it. Sounds like you 'educated gentlemen' may have an attention deficit disorder or two...

As for football "not mattering", that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard- it's only the most popular sport on the planet, where more than one-and-a-half continents and the odd other country actually take an interest in its WORLD cup.

Steve K, Newcastle, England

"But if placed in the same situation as the rugby players, would the outcome have been the same? Or would they have capitulated to the better team as usual?"

So does this mean that when England's rugby team lost nine games in a row the other year or get spanked (sorry, "capitulate to the better team") by Ireland rugby is suddenly a worse sport than football?!?

Not sure you've thought this through properly have you Gareth...

Stephen, Brum, England

Kaveh Solhekol you are a joke. Worse arguements i have ever seen.

rugby is better than football because you dont have to segregate the fans, o and we can have a drink in the stadium too.

Chris, Aberdeen,

George Orwell not Polly Toynbee for no 8

Bob Fleming, london, United Kingdom

The difference between the two teams on Saturday was that the rugby team did not play their most expansive, error -free match ever but they won through sheer determination, passion and will to win. The football team gave up at 3-nil and sat on the win. Granted, that's all they needed to do. But if placed in the same situation as the rugby players, would the outcome have been the same? Or would they have capitulated to the better team as usual? English fans want to see pride, passion and the determination not to be beaten until the final whistle. Regardless of the sport. If the football team want us to believe that they are just as passionate about playing and winning for their country they could start by learning the words to our national anthem! Taking part is not good enough. Wanting to win is not good enough. We need to want to thrash every opponent we face if not in scoreline then in the fashion of the victory. We do not care if we lose, we care about the manner of the defeat.

Gareth Neal, Cambridge, Cambridgeshire

10,142 is pretty much a sell-out at Bath because the ground is in the city centre and mostly temporary stands due to planning restrictions which mean the closest a new Bath stadium is likely to be if they move out is Bristol. Bath could easily double-that if they could get more seats. Added to which a top flight match between two top sides at a club who are practically sell-outs every week costs the same (approc £25) as watching a 3rd tier football game at a team who play in front of empty stands cuase no one will come.

Andrew, Luton,

I hugely agree with all of Greg's comments above. I wouldn’t bring 'class' orientated banter into it either! 'Tarquin' - please! We could have a fair pop at the average football supporter Gary, Kevin, Baz??? The poor football heathens - are they by any chance bitter that their column inches are being filled by the rugby boys??! Kaveh I would love to see you say that to any group of rugby players let alone some of the England boys!! Bitterness is not a good trait!

Tarquin, Fulham, London,

The rugby team wins the occassional tournament....

Tom, Chicagao, IL

Give me a break! what kind of scoreline is 1-0. Or more commonly 0-0!
Football players are fit, but by lord do they lack ticker! When was the last time you saw a rugby fullback go down like that clown for...well who cares, when the pitch invader ran onto the field? If the same guy did that on a rugby pitch he'd have been carried off in a stretcher.
Diving for penalties, crowd violence, and lets not forget the Lock -out....what a show piece for the world game!!!

Hamsih, Canberra, Australia

Short on a story? Expect a better effort really. Must mean the premier league had a week off. 8 creditable reasons why rugby is better than football;

1. We win - England actually have a chance of winning the World Cup.
2. Intellect - The IQ of a Springbok prop outweighs that of Millwall supporters (but to be fair, a combined IQ of 3 is not daunting).
3. Honour - Rugby players don't rehearse diving at practice.
4. Brazil - You forgot to mention Dida in your list of greats. Simply outstanding. Great sportsman.
5. Results - 99% of Rugby games end with a winner.
6. Sporting Endeavour - A draw playing away is not a good result in Rugby.
7. The Milk - We have more time to remember to pick up some milk because we dont have to remember back to 1966.
8. The Beer - Who'd have thought...grown men being allowed to drink at the ground while watching a game....outrageous.

Greg, Seoul, South korea

One reason why Rugby is better than football. It's Rugby, and football doesn't matter.

Adam Banks, worcester,

You forget to mention that you can safely go to watch a premiership rugby match anywhere in England and not get your head smashed in!! Any violence in Paris last night? NO just on the field!!!

Jeanette Cocker, Cheltenham, England

I can name plenty of famous All Blacks - your ignorance does not a story make..

James Moorhouse, London, UK