So, Jack Fox, based on your "logic", the FA Cup final tickets should be divided 32,000 to Man U and 18,000 to Chelsea based on Man U having an av gate of 70,000 compared to Chelsea's 40,000?

Liverpool need to sort themselves out. Getting in for free on a fellow fan's ticket, should not be seen as a badge of honour; nor should police be blamed for waving ticketless fans through turnstiles - why did they try it on in the first place?

The proper fans should sue Liverpool FC! That should get a reaction...

Thomas Laernoes, London, UK

A lot of people do not know what they are talking about here. The anti-Scouse gang are out in full force. Why don't you learn facts before writing? Read The Taylor report too. You are i9nsulting the dead and their families. You should hang your heads in shame. Anybody buy The Sun?

Gerard Beckett, liverpool, uk

UEFA & Mainland European countries just don't know what to do with a large travelling support, hence trouble with Celtic, Liverpool & Rangers this season, all with large travelling supports.
Misbehaviour is reprehensible, but UEFA and some member states really need to look at security arrangements.

Gerry McNee, Glasgow, Scotland

Why do the Liverpool fans keep coming back to the size & quality of the venue?

This is agreed with all competitors before the tournament starts.

If the club had such a big issue with these details last August & were (are) arrogant enough to believe that they would contest the final, why didn't they simply not compete?

The side finishing 5th could have had their place & we wouldn't be having this argument.

But no. Liverpool wanted their cake & eat it too. Get over it.

Jeremy, Farnham,

UEFA has always operated under the rule that clubs are responsible for all their fans. Article 6 of of its disciplinary code states

"member associations and clubs are responsible for the conduct of their players, officials, members, supporters and any other persons exercising a function at a match at the request of the association of club."

Feyenoord challenged this at the Court of Arbitration in Sport, they claimed trouble was caused by unofficial fans. They lost their appeal, CAS upheld the UEFA rule.

"This rule leaves absolutely no room for manoeuvre as far as its application is concerned. UEFA member associations and football clubs are responsible, even if they are not at fault, for the improper conduct of their supporters... This is the only way in which UEFA has any chance of achieving its objectives"

So in short , it isn't fair on other fans but these are the rules that clubs agree to when they enter the competition and they have to abide by them.

Mark, Newcastle, England

I am a life-long Liverpool fan and, it is obvious, that ticketless travelling LFC in Athens were not blameless in the chaos outside the stadium. Though that there was chaos outside the stadium speaks volumes of the poor UEFA/Greek organisation. UEFA's own ticket checks ("infallible" UV/IR lights) to check authentification of tickets were not in place (if any!). I know of fans who were in Athens (though not at the stadium) who were offered various real and copies of tickets as well authentic official all access passes to the stadium for 1000 Euros+. Unlike Istanbul there were no alternative sites in Athens, such as large screens etc which may have led to fewer ticketless fans making their way to the stadium.
Finally out of the 17,000 tickets UEFA made available to LFC only some 10,000 tickets (because of club/corperate obligations) were for fans. Out of those 10,000 how many ended up with travel agencies/ticket agencies and on E-bay? I expect that few were left for the real fans.

Neil, Wrexham, UK

I have been to, and got into, all 7 of Liverpool's European cup finals but I only had a ticket for one - Istanbull - which I bought for face value off another Scouser 5 minutes before kick off. Yes, I'm a Scouse bunker and it's true we do go to finals ticketless and hell bent on getting in. I have bunked into grounds all over Europe since beginning my bunking career in the 1960's, when I first bunked into the Boys Pen at Anfield when I was 8 years of age. Am I ashamed - NO! Will I do it again - YES. Now, think what you may of me and my kind, but that's the facts. What can be done to stop the likes of me - have a look at Cardiff. At our Finals there, I had to watch them in the pub across the road from the ground as it's almost impossible to bunk in. And believe me, I tried really hard to bunk in there. But to really stop the likes of me, erect huge screens as done in Germany for the World Cup and most of us would just watch it, drink like fish, enjoy the craic and leave without problem.

H. Charkey, Liverpool,

First of all, I'm not saying that a minority of Liverpool fans are blameless in the this matter because quite frankly they are. We as a club have some bad apples in our ranks but no worse than anyone else in my opinion. We know this already, but blaming the Liverpool supporters as a whole for the what happened in Athens is just ridiculous.
Second of all, UEFA handled the whole situation from start to finish poorly. That's a fact! They were given written warnings by the Club and the Merseyside Police of possible troubles they might encounter but still they did not react to it.
As for people like 'Sonny from London' and 'DJS from Newcastle upon Tyne' saying fans shouldn't travel without tickets, well you will never understand our passion for our club. I travelled to Istanbul and Athens with two dozens mates without ticket to sample the athmosphere and we had no intention of causing trouble. This is what separate our club and its supporters from the rest! Also, Jeremy Ruane was spot on!

Al, Manchester,

if UEFA knew of all these previous incidents then why the hell weren't they prepared for similiar ones in Athens???

Liverpool fans are not blameles but this is an obvious reactionary policy from UEFA to save them from blame.

Mike, High Wycombe, Bucks

And today, with UEFA having back tracked and said Liverpool are not the worse fans in Europe will we see headlines and debate on the times and Sky sports etc........ No didn't think so

steve , Sunshine Coast, Australia

Why OH why do we get this subject raising its head yet again? The problem could be approached more sensibly by ensuring that the club which has the largest regular attendance on all matches has the majority share of the tickets available, The number of tickets which are handed out to officials and other non supporters should be curtailed drastically and information on these held by the body responsible for the final destination of the tickets. There are many methods available to record and follow up on the final destination of these. Many may slip through the cracks but a long needed solution is begging for simple attention to see that fair play prevails and finally puts an end to a very emotive experience in supporters lives.Give the tickets to the fans whose deserve them and no others!

Jack Fox, Liverpool, England

This is UEFA being anti-English once again and blaming the English for everything including UEFA's lack of organisation. This is then reflected on their punishment of English teams and Continental ones. So Liverpool fans are the "worst". This is funny since it was a French team which attacked Israeli fans in Paris and then a French fan was killed by Police. That's something the Liverpool fans don't do yet UEFA chose to criticise Liverpool and Gaillard went as far as calling them the "worst".

Mr Caborn is right. UEFA should focus on the causes of disturbances and this means better organisation when choosing a stadium, better security and more organisation when it comes to tickets. Until that happens expect UEFA to play the "blame" game and blame English teams when English teams are involved.

I'm a Manchester United fan by the way...

Daniel Fernandes, Kettering, UK

Whatever the inequities of UEFA's ticket distribution system or the relatively small size of the stadium, what the minority of Liverpool fans did in Athens broke the law. Why doesn't the Club accept for once the valid criticism and actually do something about their supporters?

Keith Exall, Geneva, Switzerland

Maybe tickets should be allocated in proportion to the number of season ticket holders at each club. Milan has many more than Liverpool. This way Milan fans who lost out in the ballot for tickets could have attended the game, rather than drunken louts from Liverpool who cause trouble and steal from their own children.
Heysel maybe is forgotten in England, but is not forgotten in Italy. With Liverpool nothing changes.

Michele, Como, Italia

IMJ, no fans "forcing their way into the ground" ISN'T what happened at Hillsborough.

In response to some of the other comments, if you had been at the game you would have realised that poor organisation was the major contributory factor to what went wrong in Athens.

This is not to say that a small percentage of people didn't act well, but it is worth bearing in mind that there were only 7 arrests on the night (compared to 0 in Istanbul).

A small number of people acting dishonestly and UEFA not being able to organise a major final effectively are not mutually exclusive events.

Michael Schofield, Wirral,

Well over 10,000 Liverpool fans travelled to Athens without tickets. Had they not done so, there would have been little trouble. To blame the police/the stadium/UEFA is like a burglar blaming a householder for his crime because of inadequate security.
The Liverpool fans were totally at fault, and whilst it may be a minority of them, it's a sizeable minority. Ban all away ticket sales to Liverpool until all their fans behave like civilised human beings.

Steve , Birmingham,

In response to S Wainwright - the allocation of tickets can hardly be considered " derisory". The numbers of tickets available to both finalists were released prior to the beginning of the tournament. Liverpool did not comment then.
Every year half a dozen clubs in the Premiership are involved in European competition without major incident. It is the same problem. year after year with Liverpool fans. It´s about time they got their house in order instead of constantly bleating about being singled out.

Nigel Edwards, Caracas,

For imj and RW, as I am sure you won't bother looking for it, as it might offend your deeply held prejudices. Para 202 of the Taylor Report:

"Such figures as are available from the Club's electronic monitoring system and from analyses by the HSE suggest that no great number entered without tickets. They show that the number who passed through turnstiles A to G plus those who entered through gate C roughly equalled the terrace capacity figure of 10,100 for which tickets had been sold. ... the HSE's best estimate of the total entering through gate C and turnstiles A to G was 9,734 with a maximum of 10,124."

Paul F, Liverpool,

Why does nobody put up giant screens outside the stadiums ? It might calm the ticket-less ones

John, Brussels,

here we see uefa again trying to shift the blame, having said that, I find it very hard to understand how liverpool fans can moan as thousand got in to the ground in Athens with fake tickets, ok policing wasn't good, but liverpool supporters have been doing this for years turn up at grounds and trying their luck. thankfully nobody was killed, because as a footballing nation uefa dislike the english clubs and it will not take much for the clown at uefa to ban us again. I dread to wonder what would have happen had liverpool played man utd.

Phill, Ellesmere port, S.Wirral

If they don't have tickets why do they travel? They are obviously going to try to get into the ground one way or another. No excuses. They shouldn't be there without tickets.

sonny, london,

Look at the history. Ask yourself is Hysel and Hillsborough coincidence?

Raj, Knutsford,

Hi guys -- let me make this clear, the above isn't a comment piece stating my views, it's just an explanation of why UEFA believe Liverpool supporters are a greater problem to them than those of other clubs.
That said, I don't see how anyone can argue that Liverpool were given a "derisory" number of tickets. Liverpool were given the same number as AC Milan (one different may be that Liverpool kept 6000 tickets and gave them to sponsors, friends-of-friends, backroom staff etc.), whereas Milan gave all but 2000 tickets to their supporters. As for the "black market" tickets, are you suggesting that, had every single ticket been split between the two clubs, there would have been no tickets available via touts, etc.? There will always be "black market" tickets available, at any competition.
And someone needs to explain - again - why Athens was supposedly unsuitable. I can agree about the policing, but I don't see what the problem was with the venue.

Gabriele Marcotti, London,

nothing is mentioned of course about the throwing of flares into the crowd of Liverpool fans by the Italians which was shown on TV.
There were lots of fans in Istanbul but the Turkish police had nothing but praise for Liverpool fans,, a pity the Greeks couldnt use the policing policies of the Istanbul police

Iain, Wirral, UK

Stop being duped by UEFAs smear campaign! Engage your brains - here’s the real questions that need asking:
1) Why was the most important game of the European season played at a stadium with no turnstiles or ticket checking facilities?
2) Why were UEFA so surprised at numbers of Liverpool fans travelling after Istanbul and PSV Eindhoven this season?
3) Why were almost all of the Greek police in full riot gear rather than the intelligent policing and stewarding we have at Premiership grounds?
4) Why does the Premiership not see such scenes every week at large grounds like Old Trafford, the Emirates and St. James Park?
5) Why aren’t UEFA investigating how so many Liverpool fans got legitimate tickets – those that have clearly been sold on to the black market by the ‘UEFA Family’?

Danny Minj, Liverpool,

I see the excuses are being trotted out again both in this article and the comments above. The simple fact is that there is more trouble with Liverpool supporters than with any other team in Europe, there is no argument or discussion to have about it. The team's real supporters, the club and the FA have to bite the bullet and do something to change this situation rather than hiding their heads in the sand once more.

John Murphy, Lauris, France

At last someone has the courage to tell it like it is. The myth of the jolly scallies from Liverpool has been clear to me since the seventies, when I encountered their famously friendly supporters at Victoria Station with their amusingly sharpened umbrella tips.

Ian Smith, Malaga, Spain

I was there and the greeks let everyone walk in,yes walk in I still have my 2 tickets I went to Barcelona away and liverpool had about 12000 fans there with only 3000 tickets there was no mass bunking in there why! becuase the camp nou has 2 turnstyles to get in,the olypic stadium had nothing you actually just walk in.

may I add as a serving police officer we do not wear riot gear to police matches riot gear is allways kept at arms length,the first sight I witnessed was a rank and file first line of greek police with riot shields and headache sticks and they waved everyone through,although they did give a few people a smack on the head with there sticks,we then proceeded to another line of police,this is when it turned nasty,they funneled everyone in to a small corrider,thats when the crushing started to happen.

The Taylor report did not blame fans for hilsborough,

peter lawrence, liverpool, merseyside

Over the years we've had Brussells, Sheffield, Athens and several other unsavoury incidents involving Liverpool fans. Therefore, they are serial offenders.

As Rangers have learned, when a bunch of half wits, including several known trouble-makers whom the club have already banned, decide they don't need to be bound by acceptable codes of behaviour there's not much a club can do, except pay the fines and do their best to keep them out.

Liverpool as a club and Liverpool as a city are in denial they have a problem, the quicker they face up to it and sort it out the better, otherwise they'll end up banned from Europe - again.

UEFA are not blameless, but it's their ball, their rules so all you can do is toe their line and cover your back, which to date the club hasn't.

Don't go on about continental fans' racism or heavy-handed policing until you've sorted yourself out - let he that is without sin cast the first stone etc.

Matt Vallance, Ayrshire,

The ban instituted after Heysel, resulted in 19 different English clubs (not including Liverpool) missing a total of 38 opportunities to play in Europe - Liverpool would have been sued out of existence in the US.

Then a few years later we have Hillsborough.

The majority of their fans are obviously decent enough, but there's no point pretending that they don't have a major problem with some of their fans behaving in ways that are potentially lethal - it can't always be someone else's fault, smoke, fire etc?

Homer, London,

Its poor form for Liverpool fans to lay the blame totally on UEFA. Yes the security procedures in Athens were lax and yes the ticket allocation questionable. UEFA shuld take the blame for that. But UEFA can't be held responsible for the thousands of Liverpool fans who went to Athens without a ticket, blagged, walked, forged or otherwise gained access and then sat in seats which were not theirs. What's the solution then? Is it even stricter security, where to be in your seat for kickoff you have to line up 3 hours before? I can hardly see Liverpool or and fans being overly happy about that.

Fredi, London,

It can't be concisely explained, as there are any number of contributing factors towards it, but the root of this issue is the unbridled passion which LFC's fans have for their club.

For every Kopite with a ticket, there are at least another 4 who wouldn't think twice given the choice of a dream date with Jessica Alba or cheering on Rafa's Red Army in person - sorry, Jess!

Come any major final or league title triumph, there will never be enough tickets to satisfy the hordes of LFC fans who want to be present to support the boys on those auspicious occasions.

UEFA's criticism is understandable, because our passion for our club far exceeds that of the vast majority.

How can it be contained or restricted? It can't. LFC fans will be LFC fans, brilliant, unique or ... And just like the landed gentry they favour, UEFA must cater for them.

Before casting stones, however, UEFA must first sort out their own glasshouse. I know a good Scouse glazier, Mr Platini! :-)

YNWA

Jeremy Ruane, Auckland, New Zealand

News reports indicated that there were something like 40,000 Liverpool fans in Athens. Only 17,000 had tickets. The remaining 23,000 are not a minority.

If those 23,000 weren't trying to get black market ticktes, or in for free, why were they there?

Complaints that too many tickets were taken up by coroporate clients do not find any sympathy with me, as no doubt Liverpool fans will be looking forward to a summer in which, directly or indirectly, the sponsorship of those very same corporate clients will purchase for Liverpool ridiculously priced footballers so that they can return to wherever the final is next year and complain about tickets being given to corporate clients.

DJS, Newcastle upon Tyne, England

Tom Hicks has hit the nail on the head, a bureaucrat trying to muddle several issues concerning other people (fans and club) to distract from incomepetence. He should look further than the symptoms and look at the causes. It appears that EUFA is never wrong in terms of its organisation and ground selection, i.e. the cause of the problem. Heysel was the same, a ground that was not fit for purpose, again an issue raised prior to the game. The leading clubs in Europe should tell Platini that rather than further embrace EUFA as he wants that EUFA needs to
demonstrate that they can govern and organise
major 'football' events in a way that satisfies the clubs and
the fans as well as sponsors - and if certain European countries do not have a stadium with the correct capacity then tough, get one built.

Tom Medcalf, Stroud,

I wonder how the statistics would appear when adjusted for the fact that the Reds have been in 3 European FInals in the last few years? First round losers have a better chance of appearing well-behaved....

JB

John Bustard, Craigavon,

Heysal, Hillsborough and now Athens, but it's never the Liverpool fans fault. Why do so many people travel, knowing they haven't a chance of seeing the match? The excuse of enjoying the 'atmosphere' doesn't cut the mustard, the intention seems to be to drink as much as possible, cause as much trouble as possible and then blame everybody else.

David Leslie, Perth, Scotland

Hillsborough was totally different. Read the report before making crass comparisons.

DM, London,

It is obvious that a change is required with the distribution of match tickets to ensure that the majority club be given special treatment when tickets are dealt out. The club which has the highest regular gate deserves the greatest number of tickets. Averages could be the fairest and therefore the most trouble free way of dealing with this highly fractious issue.

Jack Fox, Liverpool, England

No that's not what happened at Hillsborough Imj - despite what the police and tabloids tried to spin at the time. The Taylor report is available on-line if you wish to learn about it.

Pete, Liverpool, uk

To Imj in Abu Dhabi: Yes.

RW, Sheffield,

Yes they should have held the final Alcatraz, I believe the security is excellent there.

Peter, Conwy,

this argument that UEFA are to blame for Liverpool fans behaviour is ridiculous. I don't recall seeing Man U or Chelsea fans trying to storm Wembley because they didn't receive enough tickets - or stealing tickets from fellow fans.

It's about time Liverpool FC stopped burying their heads in the sand and admitted they have a serious problem with their fans.

Mathew Ring, Moscow, Russia

I agree that the policing and security isn't organised properly in many European countries and obviously wasn't good enough on the night of the final but Liverpool fans cannot use this as an excuse. What reason did they have for rushing the gates at Stamford Bridge a couple of years ago or Eindoven in this year's Champions League match. Yes UEFA need to get their house in order but Liverpool need to sort themselves out also.

Lorraine, Oxford,

The report says Liverpool fans turn up without tickets regularly and force their way into the ground.

Is this what happened at Hillsborough?

imj, Abu Dhabi,

Im sure most of the fans were honest to goodness supporters with tickets looking forward to a dream come true final. The minority spoil it for the rest of the fans.

Sadly, its probably the same minority that regularly rush the turnstiles at Liverpool away games in the premiership as well. Good natured tom foolery that on a bigger scale can have tragic consequnces.

Ed, Hong Kong, HKSAR

But the pmajor roblem in Athens Gabriele wasn't one of ticketless fans "hell-bent on breaking through police cordons" but ticketless fans being waved through police cordons showing information leaflets, airline boarding cards poor fakes and in many cases holding empty hands up in the air.

The information filtered back from the stadium via mobile phone and text message that you could literally walk in straight past the shambolic security with barely a challenge, despite there being at least three rings of checks in place.

It was only later when the stadium was over full and later arrived ticketed fans turned up did the real problems emerge.

Steve, Reading,

ABC1 fans were part of the desire to get into the final. Don't use class snobbery to 'denigrate' people. Uefa has to accept that the poor behaviour by some Liverpool fans was a direct result of its policies. Giving Liverpool a derisory number of tickets, allowing a flourishing black market to entice fans to Athens, choosing a wholly unsuitable venue and accepting appalling police security as OK, made this happen. Criticising Liverpol fans is a smoke screen.

S. Wainwright, St Mary's, Isles of Scilly