Er... that's birth rates. Oops. However, the population of Japan has dropped since 2005.

John, Shanghai,

For the Olympic torch show, forget about the world tour. They might as well have it paraded inside China itself, as it is undeniably a big country, especially to the poor north-western region where some nationals have little idea what Olympics is all about.

China itself has enough uneducated nationals to learn more about harmony, sportsmanship and so on and so forth. They dont learn just because they are too poor to go to primary school, not because they are stupid.

Statement from PRC police yesterday gives them a good excuse of not bringing the torch too near to the so-called dangerous Uyghurs in XinJiang though.

Gene Asia, Singapore,

I find these protests a bit funny since America is currently killing many people in Iraq already. That's not even the start of it, we've harmed in the past Native Americans, Japanese, Vietnamese and many other civilians.

Also the mere fact that the torch took a different route through San Francisco to avoid protestors violates our rights. I think we're so self-absorbed in security that it infringes "freedom"

Many other countries have had such atrocities as well. In essence, I believe we should reexamine ourselves before denouncing China. (However, this does not mean I support China or any country that deprives rights)

Russ, Cincinnati, USA

If the West were just criticizing China's abuse of human rightsm, the Chinese would be be so worked up about it. But the fact that Western media and public are quick to tie in these criticisms with Tibetan independence irritates China the most. Most Chinese know their country has a horrendous human rights record, and they are not defending their government's atrocities and abuses in Tibet as is the case in many parts of China. They are merely saying the problems there are internal, so let China work it out. A healthy dose of foreign pressure should focus on pointing out the problems and offering constructive solutions, rather than simply dismissing the historical claim to Tibet as firmly believed by 1.3B Chinese.

Chris, toronto, canada

Naleen, Northern California, says it all. I don't think so-called Chinese Americans have thought this through.

Also, when they wave this flag around in America they might think about the symbolism. Are they Chinese or are they American?

If China does attack Taiwan as many posters seem to suggest, will the Chinese Americans be on the American side?

It's nice to remember your roots, but you only have one loyalty. You are fortunate to be in such a wonderful country. It might be wise to put the red flags away.

joe, Berwichshire, Scotland

In today's Rhodesia white people are being ruled by a black guy named Mugabe, is it true?

Zhang, Xi'an, China

Thinking about a foreigner shouting at you "shame Britain, free North Ireland" when Britain got trouble years ago, you will get the feeling of Chinese now. If you want to push the whole Chinese nation away and want a new cold war, keep doing this. Perhaps it will not be far away.

Antonio, Leeds,

From a WP article:
"At least one torchbearer decided to show her support for Tibetan independence during her moment in the spotlight. After being passed the Olympic flame, Majora Carter pulled out a small Tibetan flag that she had hidden in her shirt sleeve.

"The Chinese security and cops were on me like white on rice, it was no joke," said Carter, 41, who runs a nonprofit organization in New York. "They pulled me out of the race, and then San Francisco police officers pushed me back into the crowd on the side of the street." "

Chinese military men assaulting Carter in America because of a flag?
SF Police I can see, foreign military goons going after Carter is an insult to US Sovereignty, US Constitutional guarantees, California law, ( It's most likely a crime ).

Lee , Boston,

t is not because the Dalai Lama wants a cultural freedom for his peoples that all the people who claim "free tibet !" and fight, are under his control. It is no sense ! You act as you want, not all tibetans are peaceful (and most of the young generation is reacting violently to express its situation).
A minority of tibetans might have more privileges than the Han but the large majority does not have the freedom of religion and are still out of the towns. The Olympic torch relay is going to be ludicrous by calling for a better world whereas in China, thousands of tibetans are not free, sentenced to jail, tortured...
The better way would be to boycott the first day of the Olympic Games (and it is exactly what mr Gordon Brown has done). An economical boycott is impossible that is why the different presidents must act for the human rights.

(sorry for my poor english)

charlotte, Nice, France

The same country that justified bombing Serbia for a land grab to build Camp Bondsteel in Kosovo.

Same old.

PM, Sydney, Australia

The local TV media did a great job covering the Olympic torch run as well as all the protests that occurred in San Francisco this week. I saw the whole thing live on television in Oakland, California, which is just across from San Francisco. The city of SF has a lot of experience dealing with demonstrations and diverse groups so I think they did the best they could in light of a very sensitive international situation involving so many people. Everyone had their 15 or more seconds of fame, and got to express their rights to free speech and assembly here. Protesters had their say and even though there were disappointed attendees at the event, many others were not disappointed. You can't please everyone and no one was hurt! Someone is bound to be unhappy regardless. As the local media here said, even most of the runners sympathized with the protesters causes, but how often does the Olympic torch come through town? We were very lucky even if it was cut short and rerouted.

K Vaquilar, Oakland, California

I would like to see how would CHINESE AMERICAN like living in present day CHINA. They would like the urban and modern lifestyle of big cities. But how about the countryside, how about if they were minorities who wanted to practice their religion and criticize the government for wrong doings.

They can enjoy all the freedom in the United States but how would they like the restrictive government in China. And how dare they blame the DALAI LAMA for encouraging violence. Maybe CHINESE use violence against violence but I have never seen the DALAI LAMA speak in an abrasive or aggressive manner. Shame on blaming a person who has spend his lifetime spending compassion and love for all.

If Tibet has been part of CHINA even before 1959, that does not mean that it should be part of CHINA today. Especially, since most TIBETANS do not consider themselves CHINESE. Violence is wrong in all aspect but CHINA only uses violence, they have no compassion even for HAN CHINESE.

Naleen, Northern California,

"Edward King" ( Wang? ZW for king)

Mao was a terrorist, responsible for far more killing, misery suffering comparing to IRA, or any terrorist group.
Mao's communist guerilla army act like terrorists too

Lee , USA,

Edward King: The population of Japan and the UK has fallen over the past decade -- is that a good reason for China to Annex them?

John, Shanghai,

For Internet access, PRC regime tends to ban most sites win Chinese that speak out again it. And then of course it targets at certain famous/infamous news sites in English. At one time, it even banned Radio Television Hong Kong site which is funded by the Special Administrative Region’s government there. It is not unusual that one correspondent based in GuangZhou did not know whether The Times website had been banned or not. Sad to say, through evolution, there exists a new generation in China who thinks that any western web sites which are banned by the Great Fire-Wall are bad for the modernization and development of China. Likewise they might endorse the banning of a web site trying to raise funds to help poor uneducated children in the poor provinces.

Gene Asia, Singapore,

Rippenburn, London,

Are you saying you do not have the freedom not to buy China Made goods? So you do have the freedom, then why buy China made goods if you dislike them so much.

In America, I understand many of the people now find life difficult without China Made Goods. Many cannot afford the more expensive goods. Is it the same in Britain? I do not know but you seems to be implying so..

Do not be a sour grape. You are a developed country whereas China is just a developing country. She has a large population and still a long way of to be considered developed. So please do not get uptight just for nothing.

By the way, you do not have to worry about Tibet too. The Chinese government is doing their best for Tibet. Like what some of the Chinese posters said, Tibetans have more privileges than the Han Chinese.

When visits are reallowed, just go and see for yourself. OK.
110408

Lim, Johor Bahru, Malaysia.

John, Shanghai

Well said.

Coca Cola would think twice if it was punished financially. And so would the Communist Government in China.

Everyone does what works. Everyone. Even totalitarian regimes.

joe, Berwichshire, Scotland

"When do you stop invasion and land grabbing?"

A very good question to put to Mr bush and the next American President. China didn't colonise half the world!

raymond, the norf, uk

Yesterday Tibet, Tomorrow Taiwan And The Next Day The Moon

When do you stop invasion and land grabbing? The international community are mistaken if they think that the path of least resistance is appeasement. Hitler tought us that.

The Chinese have acted outside the terms of the agreement to hold the Olympics. They owe all of the members who voted for them a personal appology.

But this is nothing to how foolish everyone will feel if China invade Taiwan shortly after the Olympics. Think that's far-fetched? Read a lot of the posts by Chinese posters (Communist Party drones) on any web site or newspaper.

Give in on Tibet and you will encourage confidence in a new Evil Empire.

(The Chinese people are completely in the dark of course. They are completely innocent of all of this.)

Free Tibet.

joe, Berwichshire, Scotland

I am totally against the Chinese occupation of Tibet, but these demonstrations are counter productive -- however understandable. They are stoking strong nationalist sentiment in China that will only strengthen the position of communist government and make concessions over Tibet even more unlikely. So long as Western governments and companies continue to invest in China the Chinese government has no reason to change. And it won't change so long as it is confident the nation is behind it. If the West was genuinely concerned about human rights it would attach conditions to investment in China, which its doesn't because it is greedy. These demonstrators would have more effect if they lobbied their own national governments with the same ferocity.

John, Shanghai,

To Tom,

You ask how many children we can have in China? The answer is, only one. But please let me make it clear, this law ONLY APPLY to HAN ETHNIC, but not other 55 ethnics in China. And you should know that the tibetan farmer in China do not need to pay tax, their children get free education with tibetan language. Every Han ethnics province are required to pay for at least one city of tibet on it's telecommunication, high way construction etc. And even sometimes Tibetan kill Han will be sentence to 15-20Years in jail (like the thugs who killing 18 persons in Lhasa), but if a Han do this he will be shot!
So please do not mix things up. If you support tibetan, please try to communicate with some of 4M tibetans in China. Or you will insist with some one of 100k tibetans in India?
If you just hate China Gov, that should be another issue.

A large amount of tibetan love Dalai Lama as well as Panchen Lama is because of religion reason, not because they are dying now.

Chen, GZ, China

Before anyone protests about the US involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan, I would like to point out that in contrast to China the US does have freedom of press and its people do have access to reliable new sources such as Fox News.

Phil W , London,

Anyone who buys or has bought goods made in China is guilty of condoning the methods by which the Chinese government operate, just like anyone who still puts petrol into their car is guilty of contributing to the worsening state of the environment. The 'Made in China' statement on a label is analagous to the government health warning on a packet of cigarettes, only it's not your health you're harming but that of the poor sod working for nothing in the Chinese factory. So, if you don't agree with the way China operates, find everything you've ever bought that's Chinese, put it in a green wheelbarrow, and dump it outside the nearest Chinese embassy. On the way you might consider the implications of supporting a nation that does not have to set foot outside its country to bring other economies to their knees because that is what your kids are going to inherit (along with a 'greener' tomorrow). It's not just Tibet that's going to suffer.

Rippenburn, London,

The truth is: in the West there is actually freedom to express your opinion, and the pro-Beijing demonstrators who physically attacked and restrained others during the event would better heed that: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/10/olympicgames2008.china. Such basic democratic values are indeed sadly lacking by Chinese both in China and overseas. One can only hope that learning will take place.

Adrian, Cambridge, England

THE PROBLEM
The athletes are being selfish - they are only concerned about dangling a bit of metal around their necks, rather than the actions of a dictatorship.
The olympic committee and governments are being selfish - they are only concerned with the revenue they hope the games will bring.
Sports fans who support the games are being selfish - politics and sport cannot be seperated so supporting the games is turning a blind eye to dictators.
THE SOLUTION
Athletes and spectators should boycott the games and just hope they never live in a country ruled by dictators!

Joe Bloggs, England,

I am glad that there are American natives or what ever you call yourselves are still surviving. So I have been grieving for nothing. All the Indian Wars are just games. All the treaties that the USA signed and them broke are fine by you. That the place you live in are Reservations, but they look like hovels. Why do you live in Reservations anyway? Should these white American not live in Reservations? What is the life expectancy of the Mohawks in Canada? Why were the tribe in West Canada marching to the capital to appeal for help becasue their young were killing themselves? Why can the Oglala nto dance the Ghost Dance? Why did the Mohawk have to face tanks? Why are the Aborigines living in hovels and half the life expectancy? If you are happy, good. When did you start voting?

Frank, Halifax, UK

China will never break the spirit of the Tibetans!

Paul, Dublin, Ireland

Ok so the 2016 Olympics should be held in Saudi Arabia and then after that in Turkey then maybe we could keep going down the list of countries with terrible human rights records afor the sake of PR then finally hold the games in a country that deserves them.

Marina Kyriacou, Larnaca, Cyprus

What nonesense. Tibet was invaded over the centuries by hoards of people and China or what was then China occupied it at times herself. This mantra that Tibet was always Chinese I can see would suit them well in the present circumstances but is historical pap. What would countries like Italy and many others in Europe be today if all those who occupied them over their long and colourful past claimed ownership?! The Olympic flame which "symbolises the ideals of friendship, solidarity and fairplay", in the bloodstained hands of the Chinese authorities had to hide in San Francisco whose population was lied to and cheated of the opportunity to claim the right of free speech generations of Americans fought and died for. A disgraceful act of stealth and cowardice was perpetrated by the Mayor, his Chinese guests and their stooges. But though mainland Chinese will no doubt be told this was yet another success story after London and Paris, we know the score. Surely its time to end this charade.

Paola, Milan, Italy

I watched the event on NBC and ABC website last night. The reporting was very balanced. i.e. they gave more pictures to the pro-China team than free-Tibet team, because there were a lot more Chinese there. ( In San, there are about 200,000 Chinese, 1/3 of the city's population. There were about at least another 11,000 Chinese came from other parts of the US, the reporter said).

The Chinese had a really good celebration, I have seen dancing, singing... a lot of preparation. That was a better atmosphere. That is what it should be. The protestors were quieter than in the UK, because in the US police can shoot after one warning, I heard.

Freyjia, London,

Those who ignore their history books and say "Tibet is part of China" - even if you believe that ... does it justify the executions, torture, enforced sterilisation of Tibetans ?

The world is speaking up for those who cannot speak for themselves in Tibet.

archie rayner, London, GB

It is interesting, but not at all convincing, to see large numbers of Chinese people 'patriotically' waving aloft the Chinese flag on San Francisco's streets.

If they like China so much, how come they choose to live in America?

One answer must be because in the US they can parade their views in public. But in China all demonstrations are suppressed.

Frank Morrison, San Fransisco, CA

I do not believe that the past mistakes and current mistakes of the US Government means all US citizens should be denied the right to protest about what they see as an oppressive and totalitarian Chinese regime currently engaged in a violent crack-down against Tibetian dissent.

At least in Iraq there is an elected Iraqi government and hope for the future - even if it has come at an enormous cost in lives.

US citizens should be applauded for their actions : China needs to understand that the western world (that has fought hard over the last 200 years to secure basic human rights) will not tolerate a super power that regards violent oppression and state sponsered terrorism as legitimate political tactics.

I won't be watching the Olympic Games and I never knowingly buy something made in China.

James, Salisbury, UK

Sunnie from the UK is mis-informed.

Can we say that America now is a British territory, just because it once was?

So how can China's occupation of Tibet be justified, on simple historical grounds? If you go back far enough in history, China had no claim to Tibet.

Susan Wok, Tunbrige Wells, UK,

Anne, Boston, USA, you are typical of the Americans (and British and Australian and Canadian and European) who excuses yourselves by sweeping it all as something in the past. The fact is that you have gone all over the world and built countries that were forcibly "whites only" and Aborigines for one were not even allowed to vote until a few years ago and were actually shooed away at the 200th anniversary of Australia. Blacks in the USA still complain and Native Americans live in hovels in Reservations.You European races have inflicted genocide on natives whereever your have gone and you are washing your hands just like that other hypocrite.
Please no lectures. The Olympics? you can have it back, except I respect the Greeks and their traditions.

Frank, Halifax, UK

Times move on.
Southern Ireland was under UK control; it isn't now. Latvia and Estonia were with Russia; they aren' t now. The chinese [government] only hang on to Tibet for the mineral resources.....and quite brutally at that.

Bob, Warrington, Cheshire

I am a friend of the British and love English culture. To be honest, we Chinese would never let terrorists, no matter what they justify themselves be at large including IRA or Al-Qaida, which bombed London Tube.

Edward King, Shanghai, China

Lets face it the whole Olympic Show has descended into a farce and is only a very expensive jolly for about one in 3 million of the world population

David Fellows, Crowborough,

TIBET was never a part of china. Please read history. We have different culture, language and tradition which is very different. could IOC stop Olympic torch going through TIBET, because this will cost many inocent life of Tibetans and world would not know much as everything will be kept secret by chinese. Please help TIBETAN get justice and INDEPENDENCE. My request to chinese donot use His Holiness's name. FREE TIBET

Jampa Choedon, LEEDS, ENGLAND

The protestors over Tibet would have a more genuine cause if they were calling for a free Palestine. They are ill informed and attacking the wrong occupying country.

Harry Boswell, Melaka, Malaysia

Chinese government didn't carry out any military crackdown, all they did is to assure people's safety!

Jiayu Chen, Jinan, China

too many fake Americans posting pro Chinese platitudes in here...

I'll bet the pro-Chinese demonstrators weren't manhandled by the police when showing their banners and placards...

paulc, gloucester,

olympics, what a hype,what a bore.
if it is sport we want, then world championships are fine.
anything else,where politics, are involved, is nonsense.
china,was and is a wrong decision, for all freedom and global warming reasons, and not forgetting the unemployment that china is bring to other countries

john haydon rowe, javea,

Anne from Boston: it is not that your are guilty so the Chinese are not; it is your hypocrisy that bothers people. There are lot more people being killed in Iraq, so you should be demonstrating at DC everyday. Did you notice all the photos from Tibetan riots, the Chinese polices were not even armed?

Joao, teresopolis, Brasil

I wish that Hong Kong had been handed back to the Chinese.. in Taiwan!!!!

Posie, Irelan ,

The original spirit of the games between the Greek nations was that the nations involved (eg Sparta, Athena...) would forget thier diferences during the duration of the event even if they were at war. Athletes would be allowed safe passage to compete.
If this original spirit is lost then the Olympics is worthless. It becomes merely a dull comercial excercise as so many things do these days.

Dave Bowes, kelso , borders

All I have seen is but a farce. Tibet before 1950s was a slave society much much more barbarous than France before 1789. The population shrunk from 3 million in 1830s to 1 million in 1940s thanks to the cruel rule of Dalai Lama and his followers-Priests, slave owners and the aristocracy. From 1950s the population gradually increased and reached over 2 million now. The story itself explains everything.

Edward King, Shanghai, China

The so called Americans (the Oglala Sioux are the real Americans) are the same americans who fund and arm Israel to steal Palestinians' land and inflict genocide on Palestinian women and children. Hypocrites of the worst order

Frank, Halifax, UK

Shawn:
Yeah right. Go wear a 'Free Tibet' T-Shirt in Shangai...let'ssee what a 'great job' you'll see...

Sam, London,

Protesting possibly the fastest growing fashion accessory in the world
Tibet an issue that has been largely ignored for 50 years now suddenly gains world wide following over the last 3 months. Why? we didn't care before and in a few months guess what? we still won't care
Iraq whats happened to the support? are we now all happy with the situation there? or have we gone back to not caring about Iraq like we did before?
World Hunger, whats happened there? a few years back we were a united people out to cure world hunger, we turned up to a park and listened to bands play some music, after we bought t-shirts, wrist bands, badges etc, have they cured world hunger? Or is it that we have gone back to just not caring!
The common theme that runs through this is that we all latch onto the latest thing like a new bag and then when it stops appearing as much in the magazines and papers we just forget about it. maybe ranting about it online now and then..... Power to the people! HA what a joke

Steve Williamson, Manchester, UK

There sure is a lot to improve in terms of human rights in China, as in most countries in the world, I am strongly for this. But please don't stretch too much or even fabricate. I saw the protesters holding banners reading: stop holocaust in Tibet, as if there IS one. A Tibetan lady yelling: my family is being killed in Tibet. Is that true? Don't demonstrate based on lies. The western media, which I used to have nothing but to trust, seems to have changed into movie making, good montage techniques. Where's their neutrality?

Another question is: pro-tibetan, which tibetans are you supporting? there are tibetans, the silent majority, who lead an routine life, not even aware of the the struggles; there are tibetans who prefer to stay in China.

During the uprising in Tibet, the riotors set fire on a house, killing five people including a woman and a eight month old baby. Among the victims, there were Tibetans. There were Tibetans trying to rescue and help Han Chinese.

Guo Li, London,

To Anna of Boston.

It certainly was not the English who committed one of the greatest acts of genocide in the history of the world.

It was the US.

In the 19th century,the US military used ethnic cleansing to a degree that would shame even the Chinese.

The US invented the first concentration camps (reservations), and then systematically slaughtered the native population.
The US has more blood on it's hands that almost any other nation.

You should also note, that in the Revolutionary War,most black Americans and Native Americans supported the Crown.
If the result had been different,there would certainly be more Native Americans today,and black Americans would have been emancipated decades before they actually were.

Tom MacDonald, Oakham, UK

Was it Napoleon who said "let China sleep for when it awakes the World will tremble"?

And by the way, to whoever it was who said in these comments that "Britain was beaten out of every country it occupied", not quite true.

A country called Rhodesia springs to mind.

C.Rhodes, Salisbury, The Commonwealth

Sunnie - Tibet "was/is/ and always will be part of China" only as long as you consider the military invasion and the presence of troops occupying Tibet.

Matthew, London, UK

Let's see- the 'happy Tibetans' don't seem to be content enough to be out protesting in their mother China's defense, waving Chinese flags en mass. Meanwhile the excuses from Chinese people seem to be that 'Tibet is ours' (and thus it is okay to deny human rights there?), or that other countries do bad things, which makes what is going on in Tibet all okay? I think we can all see the dangers of a self-justifying ethnocentrism here.

China is being criticised because it's a totalitarian state and putting itself in the lime-light. Who can support it? Who can stay silent and thereby condone it? By denying talks with the Dalai Lama, their government is really just doing this to itself.

Oh and by the way- I don't think too many of the people who exterminated aborigines are around to write comments on the internet. It's about values, not which race you happen to come from. Time and society have changed- that's what this is all about- and China needs to change, too.

G Davidson, Kashiwa, Japan

The only tragedy is that this will all be forgotten once the press have had their fill.

When this fiasco is over and everyone turns back into their KFC buckets to watch more Clinton - Obama Youtube debates, China will still be raping Tibet of what dignaty they have left.

Alex Penn, Kingston upon Thames,

It seems that I am the first person from Mainland China to join the talk. I try my best to read your words by my poor English.
First of all, I am glad to be here no matter what I saw, but who I can talk to.
Most of the Chinese know TiMES, CNN, BBS and so on western media. But I think, just like me, few of them go the your webside and talk with people from other countries.
So thanks the Olympic Game or even protest happened in Tibet and aboard, which make a normal Chinese to go to Times and know more from the outside.
I would like to tell I don't know wether these webside were forbidden by the Chinese government at past, I know I can do it right now. anyway, It's right and our right to come here. and more communication will bring about more friend and more consideration.
I would like to tell we Chinese are human beings as well.

Ryan Chen, Guangzhou , China PRC

Americans defending their patch - yawn.

Develop a sense of humour, "guyz".

James, London, UK

"Some Americans say they have changed, so why are they still in Iraq ?"

Well, Claude, we're there so your friends don't cut the good guys' heads off. Any other questions?

Thomas, Newport Beach, California

The truth is Tibet was/ is/ and always will be a part of China~~

Sunnie, Surrey, UK

It's funny that so many people are organizing to protest the killings in Tibet while the U.S. government is bombing innocent people in Iraq every day. The U.S. government is building A WALL along our southern borders. And the U.S. government has killed more people in the world than China has ever done. This country needs a revolution.

John, san francisco, CA

I wonder if the Blue Suited Bully Boys were taken into the warehouse to be reminded that they are just there for decoration, without any rights to interfere, and that all protection and upholding of the law will be done by US citizens, thank you very much.

Antonio, Estepona, Spain

I think it's foolish that people and the Chinese government deny human rights abuses (the facts are all against it). I also think it's ludicrous to free Tibet, because in doing so, people will undermine China's sovereignty over it's landholdings. The truth is, people should definitely voice China's atrocious human rights abuses but in doing so, should not subvert China's legitimate rule otherwise an impasse on both sides of the debate would be reached as both sides would be alienated. Ideally, people should be open to different forms of government (along the lines of America's principle of self-determination) and should be allowed to voice their concerns without shunning the other side of the argument.

browning, Los Angeles,

The Olympics should not be a political football. What next - attacks on the Chinese athletes for participating?

Sigmond, Goodold, USA

Sorry to spoil your Han feeling of superiority, Shawn, but after living and working 18 years in China, I can say with confident first-hand knowledge and experience that the Chinese gov't is definitely oppressive and totalitarian. Considering that your family had the funds to allow you to spend 3 years in Canada and 3 years in the UK studying (about 120,000 yuan per year in Canada and 200,000 yuan per in the UK would have been required to finance your studies and living expenses), your family is obviously part of the ruling class of cadres or business people with strong party connections that benefit hugely from the oppressive and totalitarian regime.

Linda Dial, Calgary, Canada

And dear Shawn, if you would like me present some concrete and true story examples of oppression and totalitarianism operating in China, examples of events and situations where I was personally involved and/or witnessed, I would be happy to oblige. Although the average Chinese person has been "protected" from reality by censorship and have no idea what happened in London, Paris and San Francisco, the high level leadership has complete access to foreign media. I rejoice in the humiliation of the fake CPC members as they so richly deserve it.

Linda Dial, Calgary, Canada

I hate what China is doing in Tibet, but I'm not so sure we should allow Americans to get away with fictionalizing their own history. The last lynchings in the US were within living memory, James Byrd was lynched in Texas as recently as 1998 and other lynchings took place during the civil rights era.

I think that it would be a good thing if a country that has as bloody a racist past - and not-so-distant past - as the US could condemn what is going in on Tibet without pretending to be blameless itself.

Unfortunately, the whitewashing of US history is an on-going process in US education, so the people here who are claiming that the victims of US racism are 'all long dead" may actually believe what they are saying.

jon livesey, Sunnyvale, CA/US

Frank from Halifax:

By your ignorant logic, no one is guilty because all of us are guilty. Then why bother having a War Crimes Tribunal? Let's just let China brutalize the Tibetans because a hundred years ago, the English/Australians killed a lot of Aborigines. The Serbs should get away with massacring 7,000 Bosnians in Srebenica. Are you suggesting that because most countries have blood on their historical hands, they don't have legs to stand on to protest brutality going on NOW?

Most of the powers in the world have reaped death and devastation on people. The Nazis killed the Jews, the Spanish Inquisition drove the Jews from Spain, the Turks massacred the Armenians, Stalin brutalized his own people. And let's not forget jolly, old England. One of the most colonizing nations in history and a nation that had to be beaten out of every country it ever invaded. Shall we get into a discourse about what the English colonists did to the Native Americans? To the Kenyans? To the Irish??

Anne, Boston, USA

China's record of human rights abuses and animal cruelty is well documented and abysmal. How the IOC gave the Olympics to a country who regularly harvests prisoners human organs to sell to the highest bidder, and skins dogs and cats alive is beyond me. These Olympics should be boycotted by all including the athletes.

Will, Ocala, USA / Florida

So Mayor Newsom believed that there was "a disproportionate concentration of people in and around the start of the relay," and made certain that, apart from assorted Olympic guards and Chinese para-military types, club-bearing San Francisco police and a few hundred spectators on Van Ness Avenue, the "Torch of Shame" was seen by virtually no one. Smuggled into the city at around 4 o'clock in the morning and smuggled out again along virtually empty streets to the airport, the so-called Olympic Torch Run (which actually was more of a heavily guarded walk) proved that if you're ashamed of something you do everything in your power to hide it.; you have a small welcoming ceremony against a background of local Chinese waving very large Communist China flags and no closing ceremony, preventing most of the runners from running, including former Mayor Brown (it was he who denied that Golden Gate Park was awash with the homeless), who was left wandering around sadly and alone in fashion-shorts.

Brian , San Francisco,

I live here in S.F. and there was yelling, some pushing and shoving, but I did not see any violence. The City moved the torch run because of wha happened in London and Paris. There were enough cops to stop an elephant though.

Bottom line, the torch and the Olympics are for the athletes, not the politicians. China has been comiting Human Rights violations since 1947. Now people are upset because of Tibet?

david, san francisco, usa

Shawn in Oxford is obviously from a family with money because he's an international student. Many children can't afford to go to school as they have to support their families and by 12 or younger are working in city factories Perhaps his father owns one of those factories, the ones that produce the overpriced jeans the western world is fond of paying hundreds for. Yet the labour force that makes those jeans is not much above slave labour and live and work in intolerable conditions. Much like those conditions that spurred the Labour Union movement of the last century.
In the West we pay hundreds for designer jeans that cost pennies to make, and yet demand cheap goods elsewhere. If we didn't want a bargain all the time then we wouldn't condone these industries and wouldn't be contributing to the pollution that China's industries cause.

Pat , Crofton, Canada

I say forget the olympics. The have become too political. The last and best olympics was in Los Angeles 1984. What a fun time.

ryan, harrisburg, pa

Don't buy anything marked "Made in China".

That's action they understand

ralph, san francisco, ca

Having been to Tibet last year. It is a country under occupation. There are troops and police everywhere. The Han Chinese are being brought from the rest of China to submerge the Tibetan majority and change the demographics for ever. China is there so it can move some of its enormous population into the empty parts of Tibet , and to exploit its natural resources. They have committed genocide in so much that 1 million Tibetans have died from a population of 3 million, since the Chinese invaded. They descrated and destroyed monestries and have imprisoned the 6 year old Panchen Lama, who has never been seen since. Tibet is part of a greater Chinese Empire in the same way that France was part of the German Reich.

Please could the Bob's, Dave's and Harry 's that spout rampantly pro-Chinese properganda please use their real Cninese names, as no one in the West can seriously believe their not Chinese Government officials. C'mon!!!

Steve H, Abergavenny, Wales

these protesters do not have right to attack torch bearers.
Most of them are not chinese.

Johnson, London, UK

RE: Matthew, Springfield, VA. USA comment about USA forces coming to protect china during the 2nd world war because of a non-existant chinese army.

It may have escaped your attention that it was the Americans, the British, the French, et al who brought about the downfall of the chinese empire in 1914. That is the reason why China did not have an army, and was easily overcome by the Japanese.

This little bit of history is more important today than you may think. China does not trust the west because of our historic subverting of their country. They are very aware of the fact that the CIA still funds tibettan exile groups.

Rob, Swansea, UK

What else can you expect in San Francisco besides chaos and anarchy? Wish the Olympic Torch had passed through Texas. We know a thing or two about keeping law and order.

sam morgan, Houston,

I am a Chinese international student having spent 3 years in Canada and 3 years in the UK. I just came back from China and have seen the story from both sides.

If I tell my parents in China that Western people believe we live under a totalitarian regime with little human rights and freedom, my parents would simply burst into laughter and shake their heads.

I am sorry if I spoil your feeling of Western superiority but compared to what i have seen in Canada and UK, my "totalitarian, communist, oppressive"government is doing a great job!

Shawn, Oxford, UK

The Chinese wanted these games in order to help their prestige in the modern world. Using the games for this means is what most reasonable people would call political. The moment the games were awarded to China they wanted to use it for their own political motivations. In essence make themselves look like good guys(which they are not). Did China and the IOC not understand that as the games got closer and during, that all those that the Chinese One Party System had wronged were going to challenge their image. China is saying we can use the games as a political tool, but those who oppose us and support the opposition cannot. Sounds like pretty sound authoritarian reasoning to me. If these games end up being boycotted or stained in some other fashion, the IOC will have only themselves to blame for such poor decision making.

KP Caldwell, Franklin, TN/USA

Chinese Or American?

Make up your mind time. Are you Chinese or American? Why are you waving around a big red flag if you are American. Puzzling.

China is the antithesis of every thing America stands for.

joe, Berwichshire, Scotland

Historically Tibet has been a part of china since the 1600s

"Tibet proclaimed its independence from China in 1911 on the eve of the fall of the Qing dynasty and the subsequent internal turmoil.

Tibet remained a defacto independent state until shortly after the conclusion of the Chinese civil war, when on October 1, 1949, the People's Republic of China was formally proclaimed in Beijing and the following year launched an armed invasion of Tibet. The Chinese army of 40,000 men routed the unprepared defending Tibetan army of only 5,000 near the city of Chamdo. The defeat subsequently led to the signing of the Seventeen point agreement by the Tibetan Government." (excerpted from wikipedia)

I can understand China's belief that a 38 year self-declared independance, which ended 69 years ago does not make it a fate accompli.

I can also sympathize with Tibet's desire to establish themselves as an independant country.

I'm not too happy to see this wreck the Olympics though...

Dave B, Olympia, WA, USA

Who cares about the Olympics anyway? Olympic athletes are all paid professionals. So what if they miss out on another payday....yawn.

John , Montgomery, AL , USA

"Tibet is and always has been part of China".

Well, they certainly don't want to be a part of it now!

Is China's pride so fragile that it must hold onto a tiny state intent on humiliating them internationally?

The Tibetans are capable of the same long-term patience that the Chinese are famous for. I don't expect they would give up after the Olympics.

allan, Los Angeles, CA USA

Who are the bullies now ?, when a 14 yrs old girl have to pull out from the torch relay because she was afraid of the demonstraters . I thought America was the land of the free !!!!

Alexander, Stockholm, Sweden

I just came back from walking the announced route along the waterfront in San Francisco. The pro-China folks outnumbered the Tibet / Darfur protesters by two or three to one. While there were a few heated conversations, I saw no violence or physical confrontations. It had the feel of a large street fair, albeit a disappointed one when the torch did not appear.

Carl , San Francisco,

Why is the olympic torch being taken around by a team of Han Chinese paramilitary trained killers?
Are they going to kill normal people on its route as their government routinely do?

Ian, Solihull, UK

Some Americans say they have changed, so why are they still in Iraq ?

Claude, Nice, France

The Chinese bring freedom? As in how many children you can have? Who you're leaders are? What web sites you are allowed to see? Did they "free" the 80 million people that have been murdered under Chinese Communist Rule?

Tom, Rochester,NY,

This is a different Dalai Lama folks. He is Nothing like any of his predecessors, who proclaimed themselves God incarnate. This Dalai Lama has stated in fact that he is not God, and will not be reincarnated.
A Dalai Lama of this nature does not want slaves or serf's or illiteracy, he wants change and human rights and peace. Read "The Art of Happiness" to get a glimpse of who this Dalai Lama really is, a man of great understanding, respect and tolerance.

Michael, Satna Monica, CA, USA

Wow. Everyone has completely lost sight of what the Olympics are about. The athletes haven't. They've trained their whole lives to be on this world stage. Using this forum for anything other than those dreams I think shows a complete lack of understanding why we do this wonderful event every four years. Lets not lose sight of why we do this. Please.

Shawn, Fremont, CA, USA

I'd have to give all credit to the IOC for selecting China in the first place. Perhaps selecting Burma or North Korea for the Olympics would have made just as much sense?

Cynthia, Palatine, Illinois, USA

The Olympics have become too commercial. I support the Tibetans cause.

richelle, phila, pa

i love how frank from the UK is crying about massacres in canada, the us and australia like the british weren't even there.... uhhh hello all of those countries have something in common in regards to their origin frank, can you guess what it is?

As for the run, i think it is incredibly unamerican of us to silence ourselves to appease the chinese. if you don't like our civil disobedience go back to china. I'll start caring about how china is perceived by the world when they stop dipping our toys in lead. Who really has the right to be mad?

steve, omaha,

The problem with liberals is that they will cry a river for tibet, and could care less about the people of Iraq.

Bryan, Houston, USA

Dear editor and writer,

What do you mean when you say people with "Asian heritage"? Do you mean Asian heritage is chinese heritage? That's ignorant. I am asian but I am not Chinese. I am against chinese bullying. I support Tibet.

JohnT, Loas Angeles county, USA

Those people are dead. The oppressive Chinese government is not.

Johny, Des Moines,

The same people who teach "manifest destiny" to their children like to talk about human rights?

I suppose white people really do think they are better then the rest.

Alex, Estlake, Ca

Frank, the point is reasonably well taken, except in that it doesn't address what China has done, and more to the point, is doing in Tibet, which is reprehensible. I know, I've been there. I've seen it. The Cultural Revolution destroyed the country's heritage and now Han migration and 'modernization' is colonizing away the rest. Do you imagine for example that it was the choice of Tibetan Budhists to drain the lake facing the Potola Palace and build a massive Tienemanesque square? Just because China doesn't give Tibetans the opportunity to register the injustice, doesn't mean it should expect the rest of the world to reserve judgment.

Dan, Brooklyn,

Looks like China is STILL "The Sick Man of Asia."

The Chinese communities seem to conveniently forget that it was American volunteer fighter pilots (The Flying Tigers) that helped them against the Japanese when Chiang Kai Shek's airforce was non-existant.

But we Americans are supposed to be the imperialist white man arn't we?

I say the heck with them

Matthew, Springfield, VA. USA

China has the right to defend her sovereignty when extremists in Tibet start riots and commit arson, which resulted in the death of 4 innocent Han Chinese and 1Tibetan girl. To use the Olympics to interfere with the politics of any nation sets a bad precedence.

lee, NY,

When people are dying in Darfur and Tibet, the idea that a petty little competition that nobody really cares about anymore is above the fray is beyond me.

Scott, Houston, Texas, USA

I boycotted not only the Olympics but Coca Cola as well.

The "Olympics" are a corrupt organization and should be ignored and supported in no way except resistance.

They careless about sport only money

Frank Topius, New York/ New York, USA

Hey Frank from Halifax .... not to bust your bubble bub, but my fullblood grandma came off of the Choctaw rez in McAlester Oklahoma .... I think she would disagree with your assessment about "exterminated all the natives of blah blah blah" .... do I agree with WASP's pretty much taking over the North American continent? Not particularly, but the last I heard that happened over a hundred years ago. Live in the moment, which means FREE TIBET!

Marty, Sherman, US/TX

Before the PRC invaded Tibet in 1950, the Tibetan people were serfs to the Dalai Lama. 90% of the population was illiterate. The Dalai Lama wants his slaves back. The PRC brings freedom and modernization to Tibet.

Alan, Minneapolis, MN, USA

As one of the "exterminated" peoples of the USA, I and my family are alive, well and very proud to be an AMERICAN! Thank you very much. Ain't it great to live in a country where we can say what we want, including those not so educated or informed!

Debby, Lakewood, CA, USA

Frank from Halifax,

Oh, by your logic, everyone should get a freebie card for cultural genocide because, hey, USA got away with it. Instead of say, Learning from history, and denouncing what is obviously morally abhorrent.

Andrew, New York, New York

It's true, Frank, that the leading democracies have all, throughout their histories, committed brutal acts against other peoples. But this is hardly the first time China has engaged in thuggish anti-humane tactics to assert its hegemony. So we're all guilty to some degree, at least historically. It's time for a new vision of the world; one that enfranchises all nations of the world. But which holds them equally accountable for their actions.

Steven, Vancouver, Canada

The Olympics are just another big business. A huge money maker for those in power with the tax payers of the host countries picking up the tab. Lets stop this scam now. Just think of all the greenhouse gas we could prevent by eliminating all of the fuel used to hold this one event. We could take the money used on this and pay to have fresh water and decent sanitation provided to millions of people around the world. Lets do the right thing and prioritize this big business event lower on the list.

Dave Stump, Crystal Lake, IL USA

You Frank, are part of those people who have exterminated all of the Aborigines you are speaking of. If you feel strongly about those human rights records then maybe you should move out of the Colonial Country you live in.
Also, I am confused by the Chinese-Americans who are protesting in favor of China. Why did they leave China in the first place? Now they are living somewhere where they are free to protest against anything they choose, and I believe they have the right to do so of course, but it makes my American brain think that they are planted by the Chinese Government. Tsk tsk on me.

Michael, Santa Monica, CA, USA

And what country was the one that sent people to all those places to do the exterminating? Glad you have the 'cheek' to lecture all of us.

George, College Station, TX

I seem to recall some Olympic Games in Nazi -- can you say Nazi Germany ?? Can you say Hitler?? Can you say political now?? It can't be anything but political!!!
Oh and can you say commercialized -- well just ask the networks, etc.. & I'll say political &commercialized as in
GE-NBC GE-NBC GE-NBC
the One World Vendor making huge bucks!!! Come on now let's be honest -- of course it is political and huge bucks as in Commercialization!!

zan, Milford, Conn

The chinese argument is that the Nazis have killed the Jews and the Americans have killed the Indians so there's nothing wrong with their treatment of Tibet. It is a flawed argument and this is why the world is against China. We are not going to repeat our past atrocities China.

john, Los Angeles, USA

Hey Frank. No one is lecturing anyone. Oppression is what it is, no matter where.

Mac, Cleveland, ua

Hey Frank from Halifax, Im a "exterminated" native American Indian in the USA and last time I checked I was upright and breathing.

Protesting is a part of life here and is celebrated. Its what makes the USA unique. Violence is unfortunate and will not sway opinion to a viewpoint and is counterproductive for any cause. Most here are intelligent enough to recognize that.

California as a location should have been thought through a little more thoroughly. With a high concentration of various Asian peoples, there are obviously groups who will feel very strongly on this subject.

China has made itself known by its abuses and its lack of recognition that there needs to be change and dialogue on the subject. They will not change. Anyone who thinks that the modernization of China will bring about internal reform is a fool.

Susan, Phoenix, USA

Should we not remove the beam (Afghanistan, Iraq and the use torture) in our own eye before going after Red China hammer and tong about Tibet? I see Dafur is now added to the list of Chinese 'failings'.

What is this? A drum beat for World War III? China is being painted as the new "Hitler" while Western armies bomb and torture for oil!

Tibet before the Chinese arrived was a fuedal theocracy where the people were serfs owned by the religious leadership and other big landlords. As we fight to deny Islamic mullahs Afghanistan, we want to restore the Delia Lama's fuedal priviledge? More likely, MacDonalds and Texaco want to run the place.

Alastair Haythornthwaite, Duncan , Canada

"The people who have exterminated all the natives of Australia, NZ, Tasmania, Canada, USA have the cheek to lecture the rest of us."

I think the remaining indegenous people would be surprised to learn they have been exterminated.

John, Sunnyvale, CA

"The people who have exterminated all the natives of Australia, NZ, Tasmania, Canada, USA have the cheek to lecture the rest of us." - Those people are dead now.

Bill, Philadelphia,

Being that I am an American Indian with family and tribal roots in Canada, I would say that you might want to check your facts sir.

Pecha, Los Angeles, Ca

The thing is Frank, that the people who were exterminated and who did the exterminating are long gone. I never exterminated anyone, so yes, I do have "the cheek" to lecture. Also, not all were exterminated, the success of European colonists was only made possible by cooperation of many natives. The oppression and murder that you condemn in those countries is currently happening not only in Tibet but all throughout the communist state. If you had been around during those times would you have spoken out against it, or excused those massacres by bringing up other past massacres? Funny also that during the sixties when modern San Francisco was founded they loved Mao and his murderous regime. In some cases actively demonstrating on their behalf. China should start back with its old line that the massacres are being done for the greater good of imposing a communist state. It got the left on their side before, many would fall for it again.

Randy, Cincinnati, OH, USA

The Revolution never stopped Frank! Freedom will win in the end! The Chinese Government has already changed and the end is near for they have let freedom out of the bag!

William , Beckley, WV

I think the protesters are full hypocracy, they violently violate others right to run the torch & hurt innocent civilians. Then have the gall to say they are fighting for human rights. If I was a torch runner & if any protester touch, I would punch them out of self-defense. It is like if I disagree someone, then they have the right to hit at me?

Dennis, Los Angeles, Ca

Pro-Chinese demonstrators say they are outraged by the politicization of the games. Don't they realize that when the conditions for holding the games involve a certain level of committment on the host country's part to some basic human rights and freedoms, the Games are already political? China has only itself to blame for these protests.

Norma, Northampton, MA

The people who have exterminated all the natives of Australia, NZ, Tasmania, Canada, USA have the cheek to lecture the rest of us.

Frank, Halifax, UK